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Saturday, March 08, 2008

Not Going to Stand For (or in) the Ladies Room

I think it's going to be getting harder and harder for homosexual activists and their other liberal friends to keep claiming they have no radical agenda to turn our society upside down.

Especially with crazy stuff like the co-ed restrooms and showers being pushed in Montgomery County in Maryland. The county recently passed a law allowing men to use women's facilities if they claim they "perceive" themselves as a woman.

Fortunately, a group called Maryland Citizens for a Responsible Government has stood up for sanity and has successfully petitioned to take this crazy law to a vote of the people in November.

WorldNetDaily says this about the law:

The law aims to protect transgender people from discrimination in housing, employment, public accommodations and various services.

Isn't it about time the grownups took charge again?

Isn't it about time our society stopped coddling every wacked-out, rebellious trouble-maker and forced people to confront reality head-on?

Isn't it time our society, both for the good of the individual and the good of society, told these so-called "transgendered" people to look between their legs, read the tea leaves or whatever else they find there, and just deal with reality?

What you "perceive" your sex to be counts for little when your DNA and your gonads tell a different story. I might perceive I'm King Tut, but the only thing I'd have in common with him would be a ride up a certain river in Egypt.

If someone claimed they were a duck, or were Napoleon, I think most of us would agree there's something wrong with that person. But somehow when they deny the reality of their genitals, we're supposed to pretend along with them?

Our government and system of order and authority should not contort and humiliate itself by trying to accommodate someone who obviously has some serious mental or attitudinal problems.

At a minimum, if some guy, because he's genuinely screwed up by something that happened as a child or because he's just angry at God, wants to run around in a dress or wear makeup, then he should be prepared to deal with the consequences (not getting that job he wanted, getting strange looks when he goes to the men's room, or getting arrested when he tries to use the ladies room).

Instead of recognizing this type of behavior as a problem and trying to help the individual get their head on straight as we used to, we play along with their insanity, and encourage them in their delusion. And in capitulating to insanity and throwing out reality, we not only do the individual a disservice, we open ourselves up to additional problems, lawsuits, and expose women and children to unnecessary discomfort and danger.

But if good, sane people choose to sit quietly and allow this kind of decay to happen, then we'll get what we deserve.

Let's hope others in Maryland and around the country where this kind of silliness is being promoted join the Maryland Citizens for a Responsible Government in saying, "No, the grownups are back in charge, and you're just going to have to deal with your sex!"


Anonymous said...

It's sad that you're very uninformed about transsexuals. They are not 'crazy' people. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender . Start with that, and do some research on the internet, and then see if you can write a more objective editorial.

Anonymous said...

I appreciate your grave concern that women with penises will use the shower-stalls at the local Bethesda YWCA.

However, the law does not say that they are allowed to do so. It simply says that an employer, government, business or some other institution will not discriminate based on their gender-identity. The toilet/shower issue is a non-issue that no one other than an ill-informed person would see as an issue at all.

I don't believe that 'acts of perversion' are about to break out inside the DC Beltway, at least none that are not already occurring there without this particular law.

I would be willing to guess that there have been transgendered people at some time or another in every bathroom you have ever used and that your wife has ever used with the possible exception of the one in your own home.


lady amarant (simone) said...


It seems that you are slightly misinformed as to the actual cause of homosexuality, transsexualism, and all the other gender variants out there. This is probably not even by any ommission of yours, because admittedly, this field of research is fairly new, and findings are generally not well publicised.

Recent studies have shown a number of structural differences in the brains and bodies of transsexual people that strongly indicate a biological cause, as opposed to psychological. Gender identity is determined by small structures located in the hypothalamus, and post-mortems have shown these structures to be female in the brains of Male-to-Female transsexuals. Keep in mind that Gender Identity and Sexual Preference are located in slightly different areas of the hypothalamus, so a transgendered individual could be straight or gay, but both have an identifiable biological precursor.

When we are conceived, all of us start out female, by default. The brain of a foetus is only gendered at around 12 weeks after conception due to the release of sex hormones into the mother's womb, depending on whether the foetus is XX (female) or XY (male). Any one of dozens of factors can interfere with this gendering process, either partially or fully, and since gender identity and sexual preference are seated in slightly different structures and areas of the brain, you can end up with homosexual or straight transsexuals, homosexual or straight non-trans people, bisexuals, bi-gendered, androgynes and every other combination you can shake a stick at.

A well known example of this is diethylstilbetrol ( http://www.intersexualite.org/DES_Info.html ) but considering the artificial hormones that leech into the environment from our plastics, growth hormone and antibiotics used by the tanker-load in the dairy and meat industries, etc. There are plenty of culprits to go around. Add to that congenital defects, excessive stress and many other factors that can interfere with the development of the foetus, and expecting there NOT to be variation is frankly beyond me.

This is not to say that I regard gender variance as unnatural. I attribute an increase in gender and sexuality variance to human interference. There have always been environmental stressors around though, from something as obvious as sun-flare activity down to the concentration of particular trace elements in a certain mountain stream the tribe happens across. Variations in birth occur because of variation environment, whether in- or ex-utero. We've just made the environment more unstable, thus precipitating an increase in variation.

Now, I am not as up to speed on research as regards homosexuality, though it is related to transsexuality, at least as far as brain chemistry and structure goes. As such, I'll only present studies as regards transsexualism that indicate biological rather than psychological origin:


Bob Ellis said...

Women don't have penises, Liz. Some men who act like women do, though.

Bob Ellis said...

simone, you go ahead and keep believing all the excuses apologists come up with to humor these people instead of helping them deal with reality.

In the meantime, if their DNA says they're male, and they have their sex organs on the outside of their bodies, they're male.

God made it that way, and it's pretty simple. It's only when humans want something God didn't intend for them to have, that things get complicated.

Theophrastus Bombastus said...

I was curious about the research cited by Simone and to the trouble to read a couple of them. There are so many flaws in the methodologies and analyses of these reports that I am surprised they were even published. The facts that subjects were castrated and treated with a variety of hormones prior to entering studies are glossed over with presumptions that have not been established in prior controlled studies.

The parameters in the New Scientist piece begin with presumptions, which are then confirmed by the authors with a flawed methodology that any biology student would recognize immediately.

Besides, if these reports are correct, then we have established that trans-sexualism and homosexuality are likely the result of neural or biochemical errors in development and research should be directed at a cure for these diseases.

Anonymous said...


What actions/penalties/punishments would you use if the authority and responsibility of this transsexual problem were delegated solely to you?

What would you mandate be done to a second-grader boy who exhibited effeminate behaviour and said he wanted to be a girl?

What would be the penalty for being caught in clothes of the opposite sex?

What would be the penalty for being caught in the clothes of the opposite sex and being in a public toilet or changing/showering facility of the opposite gender?

Should there be any action taken against the parents who allowed such children to be so spoiled that they turned out that way?

Lots of people have already defined this problem -- please be the first to present plans to remedy it in our society.

Hazumu Osaragi

Bob Ellis said...

I don't need to come up with anything new, Hazumu, because these kinds of problems aren't new--only our misplaced "tolerance" of them.

What did we used to do, before we came to indulge insanity? Attempt to give them psychiatric treatment so they could function in normal society? Provide them moral training so they could understand that this kind of behavior is immoral and incorrect? And if they still chose to invade areas reserved to the opposite sex, they were typically arrested for disturbing the peace, public lasciviousness, or some similar charge.

We don't need "new" solutions. The old ones worked just fine.

Anonymous said...

While I was writing my last comment, Theophrastus Bombastus said that if there was a physiological basis for the existence of homosexuals and transsexuals, that we should research a cure.

Interesting. I think that a cure that worked would be welcomed by a significant portion of homosexuals and transsexuals, as nobody rationally chooses to be an outcast, pariah, sub-human second-class citizen unworthy of participating in society.

Some cures happen suddenly, when someone has a flash of insight into the mechanism of an illness. This is what happened with ulcers, when it was found they were caused by a bacteria that could easily be wiped out by a course of the right antibiotics. Leprosy is another disease which was once thought to be a sign of God's retribution, but which is now treatable and in most cases curable.

Some diseases or conditions still don't have cures, even when we understand many of the mechanisms of the illness. What of those who have Autism or Asperger's syndrome. The consensus of medical science is now that there is a genetic predisposition coupled with environmental factors that leads to expression of autism. But, there is no 'cure' for it once it is well manifested.

Being able to cure homosexuals and transsexuals may be a long way off. What do you propose we do with homosexuals and transsexuals while we wait for an effective cure for these conditions, and what do you propose the homosexuals and transsexuals should do while THEY wait for a possible cure?

Hazumu Osaragi

Bob Ellis said...

There already is a cure for homosexuality and transsexuality, Hazumu. Psychotherapy may be able to help, but being born again is the real cure.

Entering into a personal relationship with the creator of the universe and the creator of all human beings is the best way a person can get not only their thinking and behavior, but their whole orientation about everything set upon the path God always intended for them.

If a person wonders what their path should be sexually, they only need look between their legs to figure that out. The rest is a willingness to devote themselves to that path, and God, the being who designed and created them, is the best source for the ability to do that.

That's what all of us must do, regardless of where ever our orientation is off; drunk, drug addict, gambler, adulterer, thief, murderer, self-centeredness, whatever. It isn't easy for any of us, regardless of our sin-disposition. But God makes it possible to begin the journey to wholeness.

lady amarant (simone) said...


No argument from me there. As I said in my own post, research in this direction is still a very recent development, primarily because of the social stigma around these variations, and absolutely, more research is required.

We cannot deny though that there is something going on. It's not just our own species that is being affected either - throughout the animal kingdom, incidents of variation are increasing many times over, often to the detriment of the species' survival. Even in species that can naturaly change sex, this interference of ours is precipitating a crisis.

Animals that can and do naturally change their sex:

The effect of synthetic compounds on the animal kingdom:

Zoe Brain said...

It's not that simple, Bob.

Look up 5ARD or 17BHDD - mutations that cause natural apparent sex changes in humans.

There are other, rarer conditions too that can cause the same sort of thing.

There's perhaps 300,000 people in the USA to whom your common-sense "what everyone knows" view just won't apply. People with neither 46xx (female) genes nor 46xy (male) ones, but 47xxy. Or with both 46xx and 46xy, depending on where you take the tissue sample. Or people with 46xy (male) genes but internal genitalia, or 46xx (female) genes but external genitalia.

As for Transsexuality...

Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997)
A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality. (PDF here)

Kruijver F.P.M, Zhou J.-N, Pool C.W., Swaab D.F. (2000)
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus (PDF here)

Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings.

Original (in German) at ArzteZeitung, peer reviewed translation from the German and critique here.

These people already face a miserable and terminally embarassing existence, subject to arrest just because of the way they're born. The whole legal mess needs clarifying and making consistent, just so they have simple, basic human rights you take for granted. The right to marry, the right to have a passport, the right to make use of public facilities.

The lot of any woman, with a body that's 99% female, who is compelled to use a male bathroom by simplistic laws is not good. And men, with bodies that are 99% male, who are compelled to use female bathrooms have it even worse. Rape or Lynching repectively are real possibilities.

In know you don't mean that to happen, but it's a consequence of the lack of knowledge, and it has to be said, very financially profitable distortions of those who seek to sensationalise the issue in order to raise funds. They don't see such people as being really human, you see. As Michael Savage said about a Rape/Murder victim:
But you know what? You're never gonna make me respect the freak. I don't want to respect the freak.

Now a disclaimer : In 1985, I was diagnosed as a mildly intersexed male, based on some simple tests. In 2005 this diagnosis was changed to very intersexed female, based on whole batteries of tests and expert examinations. My OB/Gyn can testify to my femininity from pap smear tests, but my Birth Certificate says "Boy". I have one of those rare conditions where appearance changes over time.

So what bathroom should I use, Bob? Without this legislation, it would be the Men's room.

More people like me exist than you realise. Since the advent of the Internet, we now know just many of us there are. Since the backlash against Gay Marriage, we no longer "fly under the radar screen" but have been forced to take action to avoid increased persecution. Even Right Wingers like me.

Fortunately, some of our most implacable opponents, Christians who act from the highest motives, once they are made aware of the facts, become our greatest allies.

Feel free to contact me for more info. I don't have the right to tell you what you should or should not think. All I want to do is present the medical facts to you, and let you make up your own mind.

Me, I try to follow Isaiah 56:4-5. These medical anomalies are not new, and scriptural guidance to us has already been given.

Bob Ellis said...

Zoe Brain, by the numbers you cited, you're talking about 0.1% of the population.

You do not make the rule based on the exception--in anything.

Besides, I think you and I both know that the issue here is not really intended for any true exceptions to the rule, but for those who are simply rebelling against the sexuality they were born with.

lady amarant (simone) said...

No offense Bob, but you did not actually answer Zoe Brain's Question, nor mine. What should intersexed and transsexual people who simply don't fit the simple hetero male, hetero female paradigm do? Zoe is intersex and was raised a boy. I am Male to Female transsexual and most likely have Klinefelter syndrome, a genetic intersex condition where you are chromosomaly xxy rather than xx or xy. Klinefelter makes it almost dead certain that you WILL have GID, and it affects one in every 500 born males. Or is it okay for the hate and violence against us to continue?

Bob Ellis said...

Were you born with internal or external genatilia, simone?

lady amarant (simone) said...

Still not answering the question Bob, but I'll bite:

Klinefelter's syndrome us a chromosomal intersex condition rather than a genital intersex one. This caused me to be born with underdeveloped male genitalia. I'm also effectively sterile. At puberty I started developing breasts due to an effect known as gynocomastia. Since I was quite overweight by then, trying to eat my GID away, I could hide this from my peers. Suffice it to say though that I did not relish locker rooms. BTW, I started identifying as a girl around age 4 or 5, long before any of these differences became a psychological issue.

For more information on klinefelters, here ya go:

And I would urge you to read a bit and see for yourself just how much variation there is in gender, in sexuality, in identity. We're not freaks, we're not perverts. (Hell, I'm asexual. I have no interest in sex of any kind, probably due to low testosterone levels my whole life) All we are is normal people with our own issues to deal with, just like you. All we ask is that you don't make those issues all the more difficult by fearing and hating and attacking us. We're no threat to any of you.

Bob Ellis said...

Simone, I don't fear, hate or attack you. All I'm advocating is some sanity and order in the restroom.

Your condition is obviously not the norm, or even the norm for the abnormal. As I said before, we don't make rules based on the exceptions, not if we want to retain any semblance of order and sanity. By the numbers in the Wikipedia article you referenced, this affects 0.2% of the population.

I sympathize with your plight and condition. I think if I were you, I'd do what I could to "appear" male, because while your genitals may be underdeveloped, they are neverthless male. I'd stick with the restroom stalls and stay away from the urinals, and avoid open locker rooms, both for my comfort and those around me.

However, you and I both know that the motive for these transsexual restrooms and shower rooms is not people with a genuine physiological defect, but those with a psychosexual problem where they are not content to follow the sexuality with which they were born. That is why the language of "perception" is included, so they can essentially say, "Yeah, I have a penis, but I 'perceive' myself as female."

lady amarant (simone) said...

I'm sorry Bob. I cannot agree with you. I am NOT male. my external genitalia may have developed that way, but mentally I am female. I have always been right from the time little girls and little boys form their identity, I have been female.

Now yes, there are transvestic fetishists out there, but you know what, the vast majority of them are heterosexual males who simply have a strong feminine side. They rarely if ever take it out of the bedroom.

Then there are crossdressers. They will go out in female attire as a way of expressing their female aspect, but usually they will go to nightclubs or dinner-parties or whatever specifically for them.

Then there's us. Transsexuals, and no, not just those with genetic intersex conditions, or those with genital intersex conditions that had the misfortune of being born to people who 'really want a boy' when they're really actually a girl, or vice-versa. No, there are also people born with structural differences in the brain which cause, to a lesser or greater degree, an intense disconnect between body and identity. And you know what. We're not just talking .2% of the population here. Klinefelters affcts one in 500 males. Besides that, there's also AIS, CAH, Persistant Muellerian Duct Syndrome, Mosaicism, Chimerism, 5 alpha reductase deficiency. The list is longer, but it's getting late. Add to that stats indicating transsexuals at being anywhere between 1 in 500 and 1 in 2500 people, depending who you talk to, and we're starting to see a significant minority developing here. Do we discriminate against ethnic Slavs in the US 'cause they are a small percentage of the population, or is it okay to discriminate against and not provide for people with Multiple Sclerosis, which there are incidentally fewer of than there are transsexual people.

Incidentally, a friend of mine has an aunt who was born a Chimera, (where a pair of fraternal twins develop initially, but then the two merge into a single foetus) In essence, she is two people, with two different sets of DNA, one that of a girl, one a boy. Which bathroom should she use?

lady amarant (simone) said...

I forgot to add, because I did get a bit emotional on that last post, for which I appologise.

I know that it's only a tiny group of people who actually allow their misunderstanding of gender variance to turn into violence. But the fact is that it does. Sweeping us away into the cupboard just makes us bigger targets. All we ask is for our situation to be normalised, for people to be able to see us, to become familiar with us and why we are the way we are. And yes, I know you would like to make the distinction that you are only after this group or that, but the fact is that society lumps us all together and persecutes us as such.

And as to bathrooms. Make them all unisex. single stall. one person at a time in private. that way everybody gets to go for a wee without having to worry about the consequences, or about who they're sharing with.

Bob Ellis said...

I can only reiterate what I've already said. If you have external genetalia, then you're a make, even if you have physical defects. It doesn't matter what a person feels or perceives. We have to deal with reality and play the cards we're dealt whether we like it or not.

It'd be nice if we could make life completely just and fair, but it just isn't reasonably possible sometimes. No reasonable society makes the rules based on the exceptions.

And we can't go changing public restrooms and showers, which women and children use, to accommodate a small segment that may have a birth defect. Especially when such a change would certainly be abused by those who are simply and purely rebelling against their sexual role.

Zoe Brain said...

Now would be a good time to thank you for offering those with a dissenting voice to speak, Bob. And I note a distinct moderation in tone in your replies compared to the original article.

That's only to be expected from a reasonable person confronted with new evidence they hadn't been aware of, or hadn't considered. But it's still all too rare on either side of the debate.

I'm with Simone on the etiology, the behaviour of those under the great "Transgender" umbrella. Guys who dress up in frocks don't go to women's toilets, except in "safe" venues where there are no actual women, just those who share their peculiarity. Well, so I'm told.

But those who oppose the legislation have their main hatred reserved not for "harmless transvestites" or "effeminate gays" but those who require hormonal and surgical intervention just to live a normal life.

Parenthetically, many of our opponents are gay - witness the recent kerfuffle in Washington over ENDA, the Employment Non Discrimination Act. At the last minute, an openly Gay congresscritter unilaterally pruned out the protection for "transgenders", leaving it to protect Gays only.

Make no mistake about it: the stories about cross-dressed Perverts in Washrooms are just that - stories. It doesn't happen. Or at least, there's been exactly zero incidents of it ever recorded in the 13 states and goodness knows how many cities and counties with such legislation.

The one time when such an event apparently happened was in Montgomery County, before the legislation was put in place, and in order to get publicity to stop it.

Women with "external genitalia" do use female facilities, that's true. It has always been thus. Women who are badly intersexed, sometimes mothers changing the nappies of their children. And the medical profession insists as part of its "Standards of Care", the best practice (physicians risk lawsuits if they don't adhere to it) in treating Transsexuality, that the patient live full-time in their target gender role for at least a year before surgery can be authorised. That includes using the correct public facilities for their appearance.

Now a correction - under the legislation as amended a few weeks ago, I'd have to use the Men's room anyway. The council cut out the bit about "private facilities" so the law regarding toilets, washrooms and locker-rooms remains unchanged.

That hasn't stopped the mendacity of the law's opponents: quite the contrary, it was seen as a sign of weakness, and the furore about "paedophiles in the ladies washrooms" has increased as the result, not decreased.

Opponents were troubled by how the measure would apply to facilities such as bathrooms and locker rooms.

In response to those concerns, the council removed language from the
bill that would have allowed an individual to choose a facility based on the gender identity that the person "publicly and exclusively expressed." Even so, opponents said the measure is still open to interpretation by the county's Office of Human Rights and does not include exemptions for hiring by religious organizations.

As opponents collected signatures throughout the county, council
President Michael Knapp (D-Upcounty) accused them of spreading misinformation. Current law makes exceptions for "distinctly private and personal" spaces such as restrooms and locker rooms, and he said the council's changes would still allow owners of restaurants and other public accommodations to segregate those facilities based on biological sex.

Washington Post

OK, he's a Democrat. But even they are sometimes right.

Note that the original wording stated "publicly and exclusively expressed". That would reasonably exclude any of the Perverts and Paedophiles you deem so threatening. It's a non-issue.

From PlanetOut:

Opponents say the protections would be a slippery slope toward
"indecent exposure in locker rooms.

So now some admit that the legislation doesn't actually affect locker-rooms. Instead it's a "slippery slope" with no actual danger of the problems you raised.

Citizens for a Responsible
Government even created a website, notmyshower.net, to spread its
message against the gender identity bill. The group contends the law
may allow "forcing even religious schools to hire transgender
teachers; and then also allow cross-dressing but biological males in your daughter's school locker room."

I think you'd agree that that latter bit's maybe just a teeny bit sensationalist. Just a bit. I'd call it Hysterical nonsense. But it masks the first part, the protection of people like me from being openly and blatantly discriminated against on religious grounds, in employment, in housing, on pretty much everything.

Take a look at what actually is said in the Bible about Intersexed people - Eunuchs "born of their mothers womb", to use the Biblical term in Matthew 19:12. Have a read of what Christ's teaching on the subject actually was when it came to excluding them.

A spokesperson for Citizens for a Responsible Government told the
Washington Post that the group has acquired legal help from the
anti-gay Alliance Defense Fund to prepare for any legal challenges.

There's some big money to be made - and spent - on both sides in this area. It's not about the issues, it's about "mobilising the electorate" and gathering donations. To see whose hysterical nonsense can raise the most fanaticism - on both sides.

You propose that anyone with external genitalia, no matter how shaped, is male. Even if they've given birth? And does that mean that anyone without external genitalia - say, from an auto accident or war wound - is female? It's not that simple.

Finally, about the unacceptability of making "special accomodations" for tiny minorities... what about those who are blind? Or in wheelchairs? If Senator Jesse Helms hadn't forced a particular exemption in the wording of the Americans with Disabilities Act to exclude them "Perverted Inter-, Trans- or Homo-Sexuals", we wouldn't have this problem, IS and TS people would already have been given reasonable accommodation for their medical needs during transition.

Anonymous said...

Bob, two comments:

You've stated that "we don't make rules based on the exceptions". But if that exception is a considerably disadvantaged member of society, wouldn't it be Christian to protect them? Perhaps by outlawing discrimination against them?

Secondly, you've also stated that penis=male, presumably therefore vagina=female.
What is both? (Say someone who could has uterus, ovaries etc but menstruates through their penis.)
What is neither?

You seem to agree that these "extreme cases" are medical issues requiring treatment. Therefore, how intersexed does someone have to deserve medical treatment vs. being labelled as a perverted freak?

Gabriel Murchison said...


It doesn't really matter why Trans people (and I am one) are who we are: genetic condition, differences in development in utero, upbringing, early childhood experiences, spiritual reasons, perversion, anger at God... I'm not saying any of these things are true, I'm saying the answer is not relevant.

The real point is that there are people in this country who are transsexual, and will still be transsexual even after we take a good look at our genitals (because, believe me, we've done that already). Most of us -- just like most people who are not transsexual -- do not go into the restroom, or try to get a job, or go to the grocery store, in order to rape or assault or freak out or annoy someone. We're just trying to live our lives. Protecting us from harm when we try to use an appropriate restroom is one small accommodation that will make our lives a lot easier and less scary. Transsexual people spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to use the bathroom without stirring up trouble, and unisex single-person bathrooms are a good solution. When they're not available, we try to go for the bathroom that will cause the least trouble, but sometimes that's impossible (for example, for a transsexual woman who has some obvious male characteristics -- she might confuse people in the womens' room, but she might get beat up in the mens'. If she uses the womens', people might be uncomfortable, but no one gets hurt and it all gets forgotten when everyone's done peeing -- that's assuming the law is in place and she doesn't get arrested. If she uses the mens', someone may get hurt or killed. If she uses neither, she gets a bladder infection).

Protesting this law is not going to change transsexual people, though it might harm us. Christianity was originally about love and compassion. Please show us some compassion and let us pee in peace. We'll do the same for you.

Bob Ellis said...

Thanks for your comment, Gabriel. However, society is under no obligation to accommodate your confusion.

You should use the restroom appropriate for the genitals you were born with and try to order your life around that. Then we can all have more peace.

Tara UK said...

think actualy knowing a greatdeal about this topic being a welfare representative at university for our LGBT that the problem is that Transexuality, Gender Dysphoria or Harry Benjamin Syndromw all three being the medical terms here do not fall under the trans category that they have been placed in.

The word Transexual is a complete idiosincracy as someone with gender dysphoria has nothing in common with transgender people such as transvestites they arent "trans" they are their own gender equally the sexual part suggest a connection with sexuality which again is not the case at all.

For some un known reason the trans community (here im talking about TVs, CDs, Gender Queer) seem to hold on to including themselves with people who have gender dysphoria maybe as a way to justify or place some credability on their lifestyle choices there is nothing wrong with these choices however campaigning for these choices to be more accepted by an ignorant public is the proper way forward not trying to tie themselves in with a "recognosed" BIOLOGICAL MEDICAL CONDITION.

This is the ignorance that exisits when ever any one hears about a TS person on TV or in the news the words such as Tranny and transgender are terms interchangable which is wrong. A gender dysphoric persom M2F or F2M is female or Male respecifully simply they were born with a genetic medical disorder which is well established. The coments on it being cosmetic would be saying the removal of a cancerous tumour was a cosmetic operation their brain biology is of their respective genders medical science cant re wire a brain and change the brain structures and to do so would mean the same person wouldnt be there anyway we are who we are due to the shape size wiring of brain. Only treatment is to treat the body. Gender dysohoria or what i think is a better term Harry Benjamin syndrome is simply a level on the inter sex condition range of which there is several levels (not many people know that) who the public to some degree have sympathy with for having their biology mixed up this is the group of people more closely related to Gender dysphoric individuals not the "Trans" community. Unfortunetly due to ignorance "underground" medicine reluctance to mainstream intergration the small group of TVs and fetishists and gender queer people who have an urge to live as the opposite sex as i put it "WANT" to be the opposite gender as opposed to "BEING" that gender end up getting through and getting treatment and are shown off as being transexaul and in fact are a sad reflection of the few TS people in the UK 99% of who you would never know who they were as they are like the rest of us get on with life go to work and have families.

Untill this ignorance is tackled on both the predjudice that comes from the general publics ignorance and the politicalised attitudes from within the trans gender queer community and TVs who speak as if they speak for Harry Benjamin suffers when in fact they dont and are of much annoyance to most of the TS people I actualy know things wont move forward these are the issues that need dealt with.

Bob Ellis said...

There's no need to complicate things, Tara UK.

If you look between your legs and you have a penis, you're a man, which means you go to the mens room. If you look between your legs and you have a vagina, you're a woman and you go to the ladies room.

Wants and feelings and desires are irrelevant in the face of reality. It's a pity so many no longer know how to deal with reality.

Tara UK said...

So a baby who fails to develop a penis or vaginga at birth doesnt exist? how about people who were born with both can they use either. This isnt a case of you me or any man or woman in the street deciding i dont like whats between my legs im going to change gender as I stand right by you in saying I dont agree with that you "CANT" change your gender or sex just because you "WANT" to however as i said Harry Benjamin Disorder is a condition when a person IS FEMALE or MALE they simply developed the wrong sexual organ in whilst developing in the Womb we are in agreement men and women CANT just decide to change gender but harry benjamin disorder suffers arent changing their gender they are simply having a treatment of a condition like you or I would have a cancerous tumnour removed!

Bob Ellis said...

I think we both know that this type of legislation is intended to accommodate the fantasies of people who were born one way or another. Birth defects that affect genitalia are fairly rare, and would be the exception. This legislation attempts to set the rule based on the exception.

Tara UK said...

Do you class Harry benjamin disorder as a dillusional fantasy that they are the wrong gender? may i remind you that suffers have biological differences to the sex their sexual organs would suggest and that they are in line with in M2F female sex and F2M male sex. I totally agree Transvestites crossdressers homosexual men etc should not under any circumstances have legislation passed to use female facilities and in fact I dont believe HBS suffers need specific legislation to allow this simply that if they suffer from this debilitating condition and recieving treatment they have their records corrected and use facilties for their correct sex like me or you would they arent trans or diffferent just men or women who happend to have a genetic illness. To disagree with the existence of the condition would be like saying cancer doesnt exisit.

Tara UK said...

Harry Benjamin disorder is one of those rare birth defects thou only 6000 suffers in Uk (and some of them have been mis diognosed in my opinion) and so werent born one way or another they simply appeared at first to have been as obviously doctors dont do in depth investigation in infants. Legislation should simply allow these people to have the correct gender corrected officaly then they dont need any further specicfic legislation as i agree this helps transvestites crossdressers etc who I dont think need legal protection as these are lifestyle choices I hope we can agree on this??

Bob Ellis said...

Tara UK, I'm not an expert on Harry Benjamin Disorder, but it appears to me that it's a psychological issue, it doesn't appear that the sex organs are absent or stunted or deformed.

If Harry Benjamin Disorder sufferers have chromosomal differences that are the opposite to their sex organs, the case for some accommodation might be stronger.

Regardless, whether the person (a) thinks they're the sex opposite what their sex organs say, or (b) has malformed sex organs or (c) simply likes to crossdress, they can simply use the stall in a bathroom and there's really no issue for anyone (unless we're talking about someone in a dress who has a 5 o'clock shadow). There is no need for special laws or accommodation, and no one feels threatened in an area where we should least feel threatened.

However, the purpose of the type of laws discussed in this article isn't helping someone with a genital deformity, rather it's to force an atmosphere of sexual anarchy on society and accommodate someone who simply doesn't want to conform to the sex with which God created them.

Tara UK said...

I really get worried when i see god mentioned. We live in a scientific world where things are measured by science not papel doctrine. Secondly deformaty of your sexual organs has nothing to do with the definition of a intersex condition it is simply that a persons biology in some form has aspects of both male and female biology equally chromosomes are not the defining factor either. I know alot about this area and dont know what your qualifications are on the subject however without too much research you will be able to find that XX XY are not the only two chromosome pairings commly existing and are simply one factor in the determining a childs sex. A persons whole genetic makeup has to be taken into account when looking at gender. Harry Benjamin syndrome used to be considered a psycological condition many years ago prior to further research which has confirmed it to have biological causes with people being biologically female or male simply having developed a deformaty namely in developing the wrong sexual organs. This isnt an opinion but a medical fact such as cancer is a medical condition is a Fact. And I hope I have been able to inform you on this area as you do seem like a reasonable and understanding person and who like me I am sure you are kean to learn about subjects you may not previously been aware of. The problem occurs when this group of people is thrown in with "trans" people IE men who want to be women and crossdressers fetishists etc. Unfortunetly this has happened over a long time and the dis association is hard to get accross and in fact isnt publicised and educated enough I think many of the misconceptions and problems with people who have this specific medical condition wouldnt exisit if they hadnt been thrown to the dogs years ago and placed with this random group of people.

We totally agree I do not believe Transvestites gender queer crossdressers or sexual fetishists should have any legal rights in this field as legislating for a lifestyle choice is just silly however further education on this subject to seperate historic ignorance mainly due to the tvs and men holding on to harry benjamin disorder to legitamise their dressing with comments like im part TS im really TS etc which would be like me or you having the flu and going i have cancer simply to gain sympathy. It would be wrong if we did that and we wouldnt as a result criticise cancer suffers simply for being ill. I hope we can agree on this as I think its simply a matter of understanding and the large Trans group of mainly men damaging and creating ignorance about harry benjamin syndrome suffers. xx

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