Homosexual War on Normalcy Spreading

A few days ago I wrote about the homosexual activist’s witch hunt against normalcy.  I pointed out that the latest threshold of insanity is being pushed in the textbooks in Great Britain where activists would indoctrinate children to accept homosexuality not only in health class but in math and science class.

In that article I reminded readers how liberals in America continually look to socialist Europe and demand that the United States follow in those footsteps (to ruin).  I said it would only be a matter of time before Leftists pushed it here.  Little did I know that it was already in an advanced stage in California.

A press release from the Pacific Justice Institute yesterday alerted me to SB 48 in the California legislature:

Most California schools teach California history in the fourth grade. Current law points students to the contributions of “both men and women, black Americans, American Indians, Mexicans, and Pacific Island people.” SB 48 adds LGBT and changes the names of most of the other ethnic groups to sound more politically correct, although it eliminates “Mexicans” entirely, without adding back in any other Latino designation.

Yes, school children in the fourth grade desperately need to learn about the “contributions” of people who sodomize one another. While we’re at it, shouldn’t we include the “contributions” of adulterers, people who frequent prostitutes, who have relations with animals, who urinate on one another for sexual pleasure, or who revel in coprophilia?   Why should these “minority groups” be left out from being recognized for their vital historical contributions?  Why should our fourth grade children be deprived of the knowledge of the historical contributions of people with “special” sexual proclivities?

More on this from the California Family Council website:

Promoting it as a method of thwarting bullying and harassment in the schools, SB 48 is billed as the “Fair, Accurate, Inclusive, and Respectful (FAIR) Education Act.” This legislation would require children to learn the history and contributions of homosexuals. Just as children currently study the roles and contributions of men and women, African Americans, and members of other ethnic groups, SB 48 would require lessons to include “the early history of California and a study of the role and contributions of both men and women, Native Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Pacific Islanders, European Americans, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans, and members of other ethnic and cultural groups, to the economic, political, and social development of California and the United States of America, with particular emphasis on portraying the role of these groups in contemporary society.” In other words, history in California schools would equate sexual identity with ethnicity.

In practical terms, SB 48 is not at all “fair” – not when it would promote one viewpoint, while denying and silencing another. Homosexuals would be presented as a positive, accepted norm without the mention of any negative health or moral concerns shared by medical experts, religious leaders, and parents. Schools have long been accused of re-writing history in order to support current culture. In this circumstance history would flagrantly be rewritten with propaganda favoring pro-homosexual messages in the schools. To add GLBT issues to the history of California and the United States further dilutes objective truth in public schools and misinforms children about the lifestyle.

Notice also that this dark agenda of indoctrination is being advanced under the auspices of “anti-bullying.”  As if anyone were “pro-bullying,” acceptance of homosexual behavior is being regularly and routinely advanced in public schools under the cloak of attempting to stop bullying.  Never mind that students have from time immemorial been bullied for being fat, skinny, ugly, shy, bookish, tall, short, wearing glasses, poor, and yes, being an effeminate boy or a tomboyish girl.  Also never mind that teachers are already doing all they can to stop students from mistreating one another.

Here in South Dakota, an “anti-bullying” bill was introduced in our legislature on Monday by a Rapid City pro-homosexual state senator.  Homosexual activists were smarter than usual this time, with the usual suspects taking a “hands off” approach when the bill was introduced and avoiding explicitly pro-homosexual language in the initial bill (plenty of time to work that in later).  Fortunately, most legislators in the Senate Education Committee saw through this ruse yesterday and voted it down. I am told by a conservative lobbyist friend that a South Dakota pro-homosexual group came out of the closet at the last minute to make a last-ditch effort to save the bill, but it was to no avail.  Thank God.

We must remain continually vigilant, my friends.  Liberal activists are not laid back like we conservatives have been for too long. They don’t wait for the battles to come to them–they start them. They are clever enough to realize that if they can indoctrinate developing children at a very young age, if they can get them to believe homosexual behavior is normal, natural, healthy and moral at that impressionable age, they will have likely won a convert for life.

Conservatives must be proactively on the lookout for these threats, and take the initiative to push back against the illegitimate societal gains of homosexual activists.  Children are the members of society who are least capable of defending themselves against the pernicious lie. We cannot let them down by leaving them undefended against this assault. Our children are counting on the grownups to act like grownups.

100 Responses to “Homosexual War on Normalcy Spreading”

  1. Maybe you should reiterate that point to the priests in the Catholic Churches. Seems to me that there have been more then a few that engaged in said immoral sex acts. Don’t get me wrong, religion is a necessary evil for some people to stay on the “straight and narrow” so to speak, but not all of us need religion to know what is right and wrong. In fact, it seems to me that those of us without religion sometimes understand the definition of right and wrong better than those who do believe. Your book, using the term loosely, teaches people a great deal about morality, but fails to stay consistent. How can you teach the love and adoration of Christ on one breath, and condemn an entire group of people on the other? Does the act of homosexuality effect you at all in your daily life? Do you walk down the street everyday only to see two men having sexual relations in front of you? Do others need to know what you do behind closed doors in order to make their life more complete? I would hope not. I don’t understand why your blatant fear of homosexuals interferes with your lives so badly that you feel you must do something about it. If you are correct in your beliefs, those who engage in such behavior will be punished by your God. And to quote one of your own people, “Ye without sin, cast the first stone.” The way I see it, there are so many sins that are done everyday by the majority of people, how are there any people in heaven at all?

  2. Interestingly, unlike homosexuality, no one is insisting pedophiles be treated equally, that God created pedophiles to be pedophiles, that God blessed pedophiles with pedophilia, that pedophilia should be embraced and celebrated, that pedophiles should be able to call their unions “marriage,” and so on.

    There’s just no lobby for that (outside of NAMBLA, that is…and they’re mostly homosexuals–oops!).

    Religion can indeed be useful to keep some people on the straight and narrow. However, Christianity isn’t a religion per se (religions are about achieving favor with God, while Christianity makes it clear that NO ONE can live up to God’s standard, and that the only hope we have is to put our faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our shortcoming for us). And the nation in all of history that most closely followed the precepts of Christianity (the United States) is the proof in the puddin’ that it is the best way for knowing and following the standard of right and wrong (unparalleled domestic tranquility, unparalleled prosperity, unparalleled achievement, unparalleled strength). No one and no nation will be perfect in this fallen world, but the U.S. is a great illustration of the good that can come from doing things God’s way versus man’s way (that was the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc nations, North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on).

    Speaking of which, those nations that have done things the atheistic way area also great illustrations of God’s truth–in a negative fashion. They are also proof that no, human beings don’t know right from wrong outside of God’s truth (just as you yourself are, not understanding the obvious truth that homosexual behavior is unnatural and wrong). Which is why the founders of the United States were so adamant that successive generations not lose hold on the Judeo-Christian truths that founded our nation:

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. – George Washington

    Religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution

    In my view, the Christian Religion is the most import and and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. – Noah Webster, founder and creator of Webster’s Dictionary

    the only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. – Benjamin Rush, doctor and signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. – Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine …. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration, member of the Continental Congress, constructor of the Constitution, one of the original Supreme Court justices appointed by President George Washington.

    I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business… – Benjamin Franklin

    The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. – Thomas Jefferson

    The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power. – Alexander Hamilton

    It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors. – George Washington

    Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court

    He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country. – John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses. – James McHenry, signer of the Constitution

    Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. – James Madison

    The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government. – Justice Joseph Story

    National prosperity can neither be attained nor preserved without the favor of Providence. – Chief Justice John Jay

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

    So while you are free to disagree with me, you also disagree with the great men who founded this great nation.

    To your question: “How can you teach the love and adoration of Christ on one breath, and condemn an entire group of people on the other?” I do not condemn homosexuals. They condemn themselves by their embrace of a practice which their creator has said repeatedly in the Old and New Testament is immoral, is contrary to his design for the expression of human sexuality, which nature and biology itself testifies is unnatural, which clinical data from the CDC and a host of other health organizations reveals is extremely dangerous for a variety of reasons. Further, God cares about people caught up in this behavior so much that he sent his son to die for their sins, to provide a way for them to be pardoned for those sins and to be delivered from those sins–just as I was delivered from the sin of drunkenness. God wants the best for all people, and homosexual behavior falls woefully short of the best. If we care about someone, we will try to warn them from danger; I expect that if you saw someone walking toward an open unmarked manhole, you’d speak up and warn them. That is what God tells his followers to do: warn people about the physical and spiritual pitfalls of their sin (Ezekiel 3:18). If you watched another person stand by and allow the aforementioned person walk into the open manhole, you would probably conclude that the person who could have warned them but said nothing didn’t like that person…or at the very least thought watching them hurt themselves might be fun. That would be a logical conclusion.

    You are right about one thing: no one is without sin–not you, not me. God sets the standard of right and wrong (not you or me) by his character and his creative work. God judges; his followers only obey his command to warn others about the open manhole covers.

    You’re onto something too when you said, “There are so many sins that are done everyday by the majority of people, how are there any people in heaven at all?” Were it not for God’s grace and mercy, there wouldn’t be any at all. In Old Testament times, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to help lost human beings find the truth, it was pretty rare for people to find favor with God–not through perfect obedience (which is impossible for fallen human beings), but through their faith in God. Abraham, Noah, Elijah, are a few names that come to mind, but there aren’t many.

    Thankfully, there are more since Christ came and paid the penalty for ALL our sins. But even so, Jesus said there would be relatively few who find the way. Very sad, because it’s open to anyone and everyone who will but believe.

    I realize you have a lot to overcome, but I hope you get there someday. Famed atheist Anthony Flew eventually became a theist before his death (though I don’t think he got all the way to God’s truth before he died) and did so based on the evidence, not blind faith. Another of our writers here, Dr. Theo, was once an atheist, and he is now a full-fledged follower of Christ. So it IS possible. I hope you’ll give the truth-claims of the Bible a thorough, objective hearing before making any final decisions.

  3. Interestingly, unlike homosexuality, no one is insisting pedophiles be treated equally, that God created pedophiles to be pedophiles, that God blessed pedophiles with pedophilia, that pedophilia should be embraced and celebrated, that pedophiles should be able to call their unions “marriage,” and so on.

    There’s just no lobby for that (outside of NAMBLA, that is…and they’re mostly homosexuals–oops!).

    Religion can indeed be useful to keep some people on the straight and narrow. However, Christianity isn’t a religion per se (religions are about achieving favor with God, while Christianity makes it clear that NO ONE can live up to God’s standard, and that the only hope we have is to put our faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our shortcoming for us). And the nation in all of history that most closely followed the precepts of Christianity (the United States) is the proof in the puddin’ that it is the best way for knowing and following the standard of right and wrong (unparalleled domestic tranquility, unparalleled prosperity, unparalleled achievement, unparalleled strength). No one and no nation will be perfect in this fallen world, but the U.S. is a great illustration of the good that can come from doing things God’s way versus man’s way (that was the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc nations, North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on).

    Speaking of which, those nations that have done things the atheistic way area also great illustrations of God’s truth–in a negative fashion. They are also proof that no, human beings don’t know right from wrong outside of God’s truth (just as you yourself are, not understanding the obvious truth that homosexual behavior is unnatural and wrong). Which is why the founders of the United States were so adamant that successive generations not lose hold on the Judeo-Christian truths that founded our nation:

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. – George Washington

    Religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution

    In my view, the Christian Religion is the most import and and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. – Noah Webster, founder and creator of Webster’s Dictionary

    the only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. – Benjamin Rush, doctor and signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. – Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine …. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration, member of the Continental Congress, constructor of the Constitution, one of the original Supreme Court justices appointed by President George Washington.

    I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business… – Benjamin Franklin

    The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. – Thomas Jefferson

    The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power. – Alexander Hamilton

    It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors. – George Washington

    Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court

    He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country. – John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses. – James McHenry, signer of the Constitution

    Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. – James Madison

    The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government. – Justice Joseph Story

    National prosperity can neither be attained nor preserved without the favor of Providence. – Chief Justice John Jay

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

    So while you are free to disagree with me, you also disagree with the great men who founded this great nation.

    To your question: “How can you teach the love and adoration of Christ on one breath, and condemn an entire group of people on the other?” I do not condemn homosexuals. They condemn themselves by their embrace of a practice which their creator has said repeatedly in the Old and New Testament is immoral, is contrary to his design for the expression of human sexuality, which nature and biology itself testifies is unnatural, which clinical data from the CDC and a host of other health organizations reveals is extremely dangerous for a variety of reasons. Further, God cares about people caught up in this behavior so much that he sent his son to die for their sins, to provide a way for them to be pardoned for those sins and to be delivered from those sins–just as I was delivered from the sin of drunkenness. God wants the best for all people, and homosexual behavior falls woefully short of the best. If we care about someone, we will try to warn them from danger; I expect that if you saw someone walking toward an open unmarked manhole, you’d speak up and warn them. That is what God tells his followers to do: warn people about the physical and spiritual pitfalls of their sin (Ezekiel 3:18). If you watched another person stand by and allow the aforementioned person walk into the open manhole, you would probably conclude that the person who could have warned them but said nothing didn’t like that person…or at the very least thought watching them hurt themselves might be fun. That would be a logical conclusion.

    You are right about one thing: no one is without sin–not you, not me. God sets the standard of right and wrong (not you or me) by his character and his creative work. God judges; his followers only obey his command to warn others about the open manhole covers.

    You’re onto something too when you said, “There are so many sins that are done everyday by the majority of people, how are there any people in heaven at all?” Were it not for God’s grace and mercy, there wouldn’t be any at all. In Old Testament times, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to help lost human beings find the truth, it was pretty rare for people to find favor with God–not through perfect obedience (which is impossible for fallen human beings), but through their faith in God. Abraham, Noah, Elijah, are a few names that come to mind, but there aren’t many.

    Thankfully, there are more since Christ came and paid the penalty for ALL our sins. But even so, Jesus said there would be relatively few who find the way. Very sad, because it’s open to anyone and everyone who will but believe.

    I realize you have a lot to overcome, but I hope you get there someday. Famed atheist Anthony Flew eventually became a theist before his death (though I don’t think he got all the way to God’s truth before he died) and did so based on the evidence, not blind faith. Another of our writers here, Dr. Theo, was once an atheist, and he is now a full-fledged follower of Christ. So it IS possible. I hope you’ll give the truth-claims of the Bible a thorough, objective hearing before making any final decisions.

  4. Interestingly, unlike homosexuality, no one is insisting pedophiles be treated equally, that God created pedophiles to be pedophiles, that God blessed pedophiles with pedophilia, that pedophilia should be embraced and celebrated, that pedophiles should be able to call their unions “marriage,” and so on.

    There’s just no lobby for that (outside of NAMBLA, that is…and they’re mostly homosexuals–oops!).

    Religion can indeed be useful to keep some people on the straight and narrow. However, Christianity isn’t a religion per se (religions are about achieving favor with God, while Christianity makes it clear that NO ONE can live up to God’s standard, and that the only hope we have is to put our faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our shortcoming for us). And the nation in all of history that most closely followed the precepts of Christianity (the United States) is the proof in the puddin’ that it is the best way for knowing and following the standard of right and wrong (unparalleled domestic tranquility, unparalleled prosperity, unparalleled achievement, unparalleled strength). No one and no nation will be perfect in this fallen world, but the U.S. is a great illustration of the good that can come from doing things God’s way versus man’s way (that was the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc nations, North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on).

    Speaking of which, those nations that have done things the atheistic way area also great illustrations of God’s truth–in a negative fashion. They are also proof that no, human beings don’t know right from wrong outside of God’s truth (just as you yourself are, not understanding the obvious truth that homosexual behavior is unnatural and wrong). Which is why the founders of the United States were so adamant that successive generations not lose hold on the Judeo-Christian truths that founded our nation:

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. – George Washington

    Religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution

    In my view, the Christian Religion is the most import and and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. – Noah Webster, founder and creator of Webster’s Dictionary

    the only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. – Benjamin Rush, doctor and signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. – Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine …. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration, member of the Continental Congress, constructor of the Constitution, one of the original Supreme Court justices appointed by President George Washington.

    I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business… – Benjamin Franklin

    The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. – Thomas Jefferson

    The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power. – Alexander Hamilton

    It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors. – George Washington

    Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court

    He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country. – John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses. – James McHenry, signer of the Constitution

    Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. – James Madison

    The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government. – Justice Joseph Story

    National prosperity can neither be attained nor preserved without the favor of Providence. – Chief Justice John Jay

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

    So while you are free to disagree with me, you also disagree with the great men who founded this great nation.

    To your question: “How can you teach the love and adoration of Christ on one breath, and condemn an entire group of people on the other?” I do not condemn homosexuals. They condemn themselves by their embrace of a practice which their creator has said repeatedly in the Old and New Testament is immoral, is contrary to his design for the expression of human sexuality, which nature and biology itself testifies is unnatural, which clinical data from the CDC and a host of other health organizations reveals is extremely dangerous for a variety of reasons. Further, God cares about people caught up in this behavior so much that he sent his son to die for their sins, to provide a way for them to be pardoned for those sins and to be delivered from those sins–just as I was delivered from the sin of drunkenness. God wants the best for all people, and homosexual behavior falls woefully short of the best. If we care about someone, we will try to warn them from danger; I expect that if you saw someone walking toward an open unmarked manhole, you’d speak up and warn them. That is what God tells his followers to do: warn people about the physical and spiritual pitfalls of their sin (Ezekiel 3:18). If you watched another person stand by and allow the aforementioned person walk into the open manhole, you would probably conclude that the person who could have warned them but said nothing didn’t like that person…or at the very least thought watching them hurt themselves might be fun. That would be a logical conclusion.

    You are right about one thing: no one is without sin–not you, not me. God sets the standard of right and wrong (not you or me) by his character and his creative work. God judges; his followers only obey his command to warn others about the open manhole covers.

    You’re onto something too when you said, “There are so many sins that are done everyday by the majority of people, how are there any people in heaven at all?” Were it not for God’s grace and mercy, there wouldn’t be any at all. In Old Testament times, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to help lost human beings find the truth, it was pretty rare for people to find favor with God–not through perfect obedience (which is impossible for fallen human beings), but through their faith in God. Abraham, Noah, Elijah, are a few names that come to mind, but there aren’t many.

    Thankfully, there are more since Christ came and paid the penalty for ALL our sins. But even so, Jesus said there would be relatively few who find the way. Very sad, because it’s open to anyone and everyone who will but believe.

    I realize you have a lot to overcome, but I hope you get there someday. Famed atheist Anthony Flew eventually became a theist before his death (though I don’t think he got all the way to God’s truth before he died) and did so based on the evidence, not blind faith. Another of our writers here, Dr. Theo, was once an atheist, and he is now a full-fledged follower of Christ. So it IS possible. I hope you’ll give the truth-claims of the Bible a thorough, objective hearing before making any final decisions.

  5. Interestingly, unlike homosexuality, no one is insisting pedophiles be treated equally, that God created pedophiles to be pedophiles, that God blessed pedophiles with pedophilia, that pedophilia should be embraced and celebrated, that pedophiles should be able to call their unions “marriage,” and so on.

    There’s just no lobby for that (outside of NAMBLA, that is…and they’re mostly homosexuals–oops!).

    Religion can indeed be useful to keep some people on the straight and narrow. However, Christianity isn’t a religion per se (religions are about achieving favor with God, while Christianity makes it clear that NO ONE can live up to God’s standard, and that the only hope we have is to put our faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our shortcoming for us). And the nation in all of history that most closely followed the precepts of Christianity (the United States) is the proof in the puddin’ that it is the best way for knowing and following the standard of right and wrong (unparalleled domestic tranquility, unparalleled prosperity, unparalleled achievement, unparalleled strength). No one and no nation will be perfect in this fallen world, but the U.S. is a great illustration of the good that can come from doing things God’s way versus man’s way (that was the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc nations, North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on).

    Speaking of which, those nations that have done things the atheistic way area also great illustrations of God’s truth–in a negative fashion. They are also proof that no, human beings don’t know right from wrong outside of God’s truth (just as you yourself are, not understanding the obvious truth that homosexual behavior is unnatural and wrong). Which is why the founders of the United States were so adamant that successive generations not lose hold on the Judeo-Christian truths that founded our nation:

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. – George Washington

    Religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution

    In my view, the Christian Religion is the most import and and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. – Noah Webster, founder and creator of Webster’s Dictionary

    the only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. – Benjamin Rush, doctor and signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. – Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine …. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration, member of the Continental Congress, constructor of the Constitution, one of the original Supreme Court justices appointed by President George Washington.

    I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business… – Benjamin Franklin

    The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. – Thomas Jefferson

    The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power. – Alexander Hamilton

    It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors. – George Washington

    Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court

    He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country. – John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses. – James McHenry, signer of the Constitution

    Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. – James Madison

    The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government. – Justice Joseph Story

    National prosperity can neither be attained nor preserved without the favor of Providence. – Chief Justice John Jay

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

    So while you are free to disagree with me, you also disagree with the great men who founded this great nation.

    To your question: “How can you teach the love and adoration of Christ on one breath, and condemn an entire group of people on the other?” I do not condemn homosexuals. They condemn themselves by their embrace of a practice which their creator has said repeatedly in the Old and New Testament is immoral, is contrary to his design for the expression of human sexuality, which nature and biology itself testifies is unnatural, which clinical data from the CDC and a host of other health organizations reveals is extremely dangerous for a variety of reasons. Further, God cares about people caught up in this behavior so much that he sent his son to die for their sins, to provide a way for them to be pardoned for those sins and to be delivered from those sins–just as I was delivered from the sin of drunkenness. God wants the best for all people, and homosexual behavior falls woefully short of the best. If we care about someone, we will try to warn them from danger; I expect that if you saw someone walking toward an open unmarked manhole, you’d speak up and warn them. That is what God tells his followers to do: warn people about the physical and spiritual pitfalls of their sin (Ezekiel 3:18). If you watched another person stand by and allow the aforementioned person walk into the open manhole, you would probably conclude that the person who could have warned them but said nothing didn’t like that person…or at the very least thought watching them hurt themselves might be fun. That would be a logical conclusion.

    You are right about one thing: no one is without sin–not you, not me. God sets the standard of right and wrong (not you or me) by his character and his creative work. God judges; his followers only obey his command to warn others about the open manhole covers.

    You’re onto something too when you said, “There are so many sins that are done everyday by the majority of people, how are there any people in heaven at all?” Were it not for God’s grace and mercy, there wouldn’t be any at all. In Old Testament times, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to help lost human beings find the truth, it was pretty rare for people to find favor with God–not through perfect obedience (which is impossible for fallen human beings), but through their faith in God. Abraham, Noah, Elijah, are a few names that come to mind, but there aren’t many.

    Thankfully, there are more since Christ came and paid the penalty for ALL our sins. But even so, Jesus said there would be relatively few who find the way. Very sad, because it’s open to anyone and everyone who will but believe.

    I realize you have a lot to overcome, but I hope you get there someday. Famed atheist Anthony Flew eventually became a theist before his death (though I don’t think he got all the way to God’s truth before he died) and did so based on the evidence, not blind faith. Another of our writers here, Dr. Theo, was once an atheist, and he is now a full-fledged follower of Christ. So it IS possible. I hope you’ll give the truth-claims of the Bible a thorough, objective hearing before making any final decisions.

  6. Interestingly, unlike homosexuality, no one is insisting pedophiles be treated equally, that God created pedophiles to be pedophiles, that God blessed pedophiles with pedophilia, that pedophilia should be embraced and celebrated, that pedophiles should be able to call their unions “marriage,” and so on.

    There’s just no lobby for that (outside of NAMBLA, that is…and they’re mostly homosexuals–oops!).

    Religion can indeed be useful to keep some people on the straight and narrow. However, Christianity isn’t a religion per se (religions are about achieving favor with God, while Christianity makes it clear that NO ONE can live up to God’s standard, and that the only hope we have is to put our faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our shortcoming for us). And the nation in all of history that most closely followed the precepts of Christianity (the United States) is the proof in the puddin’ that it is the best way for knowing and following the standard of right and wrong (unparalleled domestic tranquility, unparalleled prosperity, unparalleled achievement, unparalleled strength). No one and no nation will be perfect in this fallen world, but the U.S. is a great illustration of the good that can come from doing things God’s way versus man’s way (that was the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc nations, North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on).

    Speaking of which, those nations that have done things the atheistic way area also great illustrations of God’s truth–in a negative fashion. They are also proof that no, human beings don’t know right from wrong outside of God’s truth (just as you yourself are, not understanding the obvious truth that homosexual behavior is unnatural and wrong). Which is why the founders of the United States were so adamant that successive generations not lose hold on the Judeo-Christian truths that founded our nation:

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. – George Washington

    Religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution

    In my view, the Christian Religion is the most import and and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. – Noah Webster, founder and creator of Webster’s Dictionary

    the only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. – Benjamin Rush, doctor and signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. – Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine …. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration, member of the Continental Congress, constructor of the Constitution, one of the original Supreme Court justices appointed by President George Washington.

    I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business… – Benjamin Franklin

    The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. – Thomas Jefferson

    The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power. – Alexander Hamilton

    It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors. – George Washington

    Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court

    He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country. – John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses. – James McHenry, signer of the Constitution

    Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. – James Madison

    The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government. – Justice Joseph Story

    National prosperity can neither be attained nor preserved without the favor of Providence. – Chief Justice John Jay

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

    So while you are free to disagree with me, you also disagree with the great men who founded this great nation.

    To your question: “How can you teach the love and adoration of Christ on one breath, and condemn an entire group of people on the other?” I do not condemn homosexuals. They condemn themselves by their embrace of a practice which their creator has said repeatedly in the Old and New Testament is immoral, is contrary to his design for the expression of human sexuality, which nature and biology itself testifies is unnatural, which clinical data from the CDC and a host of other health organizations reveals is extremely dangerous for a variety of reasons. Further, God cares about people caught up in this behavior so much that he sent his son to die for their sins, to provide a way for them to be pardoned for those sins and to be delivered from those sins–just as I was delivered from the sin of drunkenness. God wants the best for all people, and homosexual behavior falls woefully short of the best. If we care about someone, we will try to warn them from danger; I expect that if you saw someone walking toward an open unmarked manhole, you’d speak up and warn them. That is what God tells his followers to do: warn people about the physical and spiritual pitfalls of their sin (Ezekiel 3:18). If you watched another person stand by and allow the aforementioned person walk into the open manhole, you would probably conclude that the person who could have warned them but said nothing didn’t like that person…or at the very least thought watching them hurt themselves might be fun. That would be a logical conclusion.

    You are right about one thing: no one is without sin–not you, not me. God sets the standard of right and wrong (not you or me) by his character and his creative work. God judges; his followers only obey his command to warn others about the open manhole covers.

    You’re onto something too when you said, “There are so many sins that are done everyday by the majority of people, how are there any people in heaven at all?” Were it not for God’s grace and mercy, there wouldn’t be any at all. In Old Testament times, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to help lost human beings find the truth, it was pretty rare for people to find favor with God–not through perfect obedience (which is impossible for fallen human beings), but through their faith in God. Abraham, Noah, Elijah, are a few names that come to mind, but there aren’t many.

    Thankfully, there are more since Christ came and paid the penalty for ALL our sins. But even so, Jesus said there would be relatively few who find the way. Very sad, because it’s open to anyone and everyone who will but believe.

    I realize you have a lot to overcome, but I hope you get there someday. Famed atheist Anthony Flew eventually became a theist before his death (though I don’t think he got all the way to God’s truth before he died) and did so based on the evidence, not blind faith. Another of our writers here, Dr. Theo, was once an atheist, and he is now a full-fledged follower of Christ. So it IS possible. I hope you’ll give the truth-claims of the Bible a thorough, objective hearing before making any final decisions.

  7. I thank you for your kind words and worry for my spiritual well being. I also reiterate my statement that I do believe that religion is necessary for some people. I have respect for those who follow the teachings of religion. However, just as man, religion has its flaws.

    To blindly follow anything without question can also lead to destruction. If higher learning has taught us anything, it has taught us to think critically. This is what I have done with religion. For me, there is no real reason I need God. I am aware that killing someone is wrong. I am aware doing anything that may harm another human being is wrong. God is not a factor in this awareness.

    As far as your quotes and statements regarding our founding fathers, they also thought it prudent to add the separation between church and state. In fact, this entire country was built on that ideal. This nation was formed to escape religious persecution just as much as taxation without representation. In response to some of your quotes:

    “The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action.” – Albert Einstein

    “If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call in question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it — the life of that man is one long sin against mankind.” – William Clifford

    “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” – Buddha

    “A man is accepted into church for what he believes–and turned out for what he knows.” – Mark Twain

    “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.” – Thomas Paine

    “I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.” – Thomas Jefferson (oh, look, a founding father)

    “The clergy believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyrrany known to the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson

    “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” – Susan B. Anthony

    “Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.” — Benjamin Franklin(another founding father)

    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” — Edward Gibbon

    And my personal favorite:

    “You can safely say that you have made God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” – Reverend Robert Cromey

    Religion, based on words formed by man, to me is untrustworthy. No matter how far we look into the heavens, God is just out of reach. And for a guy who is supposed to be infallible, He sure messes up a lot.

  8. I understand that you believe killing someone is wrong. I would encourage you to ask yourself why it is wrong–especially if people are nothing but highly evolved biological accidents. In that kind of universe, objectively, there really should be nothing immoral at all about killing another human being.

    You are right that the founders considered it prudent not to establish a church-run state, or a state-run church–in short, a theocracy. Thank God for that. They had plenty of lessons from Europe to teach them that.

    However, they certainly did not expect our nation or even our government to operate in isolation from religious values. The statements of the founders I provided earlier made that abundantly clear.

    I could go through each of the quotes you provided and debunk their conclusion, put them in context, and explain why they are completley inapplicable to the issue of whether the founders expected our nation to conduct itself divorced from the Christian value system. I could, but I won’t take the time since I’ve provided more than enough proof for the objective mind, and I don’t think more of the same would benefit you at this point.

    In closing, I’d agree with you that myths and religions based on the words of human beings are not only untrustworthy, but are utterly worthless. When I was looking for truth, I rejected a host of them because so many of them were plainly a flawed philosophy stemming from a flawed mind.

    I almost rejected Christianity, too, until I began to cut through so much of the propaganda about it which is spun to sooth troublesome consciences, and to keep others from taking a first-hand look at it for themselves…and thus adding to the things which trouble the consciences of some.

    But when I investigated it for myself with an open mind, combing over its truth claims and the evidence for and against, I found that it was very unique. One of the unique things about it was that it “fits” the world around us and explains it better than any other philosophy, secular or theistic. Another remarkable thing I learned about it was that its holy book, the Bible, has an unbroken record of accuracy and veracity. Oh, there have been plenty of attempts to cite so-called inaccuracies and mistakes, but a close examination of the facts reveals that each of these criticisms fails to stand up. And while not all of the truth-claims it makes–scientific, historical and otherwise–have yet been proved true with empirical evidence, a great number of them have, and not a single one has been disproven by the empirical facts.

    That’s a heck of a track record–far better than modern science. And I think the objective mind would surmise that anything with a track record of veracity that good definitely deserves a close, objective examination.

    Food for thought…

  9. Thomas Jefferson had little to nothing to do with it. He was out of the country when our constitution was establshed.

    Someone who was there at the Constitutional Convention, though, was Benjamin Franklin, one of the least religious of the founders. Yet it was he who pointed out that at the beginning of the Revolution, they had prayed to God for deliverance, and that those prayers had been answered. He then moved that deliberations begin every morning with prayer–a tradition that continues today.

    So we can indeed thank God, as Franklin did.

    But to your questions about Christ…as I said, while many things have been empirically proven in the Bible, not all of them have. Further, the record of reliability available on the Bible is more than sufficient to justify the exercise of faith for those that remain unproven.

    For instance, the person who has worked at a job for five years cannot know with empirical certainty that he will receive his next paycheck from his employer; he takes it on faith that he will, based on the past track record of reliability of his employer.

    Also, do you thoroughly check your favorite chair each time before you sit in it…or do you expect it to hold you up each time, based on a track record of reliability?

    And no, Eve did not procreate with either of her sons to create the rest of us. Adam and Eve had many children beyond Cain and Able, and their children married one another and reproduced. There was no prohibition against incest between siblings then, likely because the genetic errors introduced into the human genome by the Fall had not yet damaged us so badly that close relations were likely to produce birth defects in their offspring.

    I should also point out again that modern science actually has a pretty poor track record of being able to answer questions. I watch science journals on a weekly basis, and virtually every week something that was “known” last week is overturned this week. If you count “wrong answers” as “answers,” then yes, modern science is good at “answering” questions…but no one in their right mind would accept that as a legitimate standard.

    Remember, too, that the assumptions of modern science involve at least as much faith as the Christian faith–especially with regard to things we simply don’t know and can only guess at, and things that happened long before any record about them was written down. The things scientists believe about them are based mostly if not purely on faith, because assumptions are not facts.

    The Bible doesn’t answer every question we have, but it provides quite a few answers to quite a few things…and its record remains umblemished after 2,000-3,000 years.

    It has indeed been fun. Have a good night!

  10. And even your own words:

    “Thomas Jefferson, the misappropriated patron saint of “separation of church and state.” “

  11. As far as faith goes, even the Webster’s dictionary defines faith as “a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.”

  12. As far as faith goes, even the Webster’s dictionary defines faith as “a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.”

  13. You should note the context of this letter. I stated that Jefferson was out of the country when the Constitution was written, and he had practically nothing to do with it. This letter written 15 years after the Constitution was written.

    Further, why was it written? The Baptists of Danbury were worried that Jefferson–being a man of very unorthodox religious beliefs–might try to quash their religious liberties. His letter was written to assure them that because the Constitution had prohibited a theocracy (a church-run state or a state-run church), neither he nor the rest of the government had no authority to meddle in their liberties or religious affairs.

    How sad it is that so many in our government today do not hesitate to try to block expressions of religious faith in public.

  14. Yes, atheists and rabid secularists who want to sanitize our history and the public square of any expression of the Christian faith or our Christian heritage have misappropriated Jefferson as their patron saint to “legitimize” their revisionists efforts. Jefferson is painted as a Godless secularist when the truth is, he was a very unorthodox believer in Christian precepts. Was he a genuine, born-again Christian? Doubtful. But he himself called himself a follower of Christ’s precepts and paid homage to those precepts repeatedly in his statements throughout his life.

    He was not the patron saint of secularism that many wish him to be.

  15. That’s absolutely correct. The atheist has faith that there is no God, because you certainly cannot know that; there is no proof

    Likewise, the evolutionist has faith that all organisms evolved over millions of years from an original organism; you have faith that this happened because there is no proof of it–no proof that the earth has been around for millions of years, no proof that everything came from one original organism, and no proof that anything ever evolved from anything.

  16. Actually Jefferson had little to do with the genuine separation of church and state we have under the Constitution; as I said, he was out of the country and was uninvolved when it was drafted.

    What Jefferson has more to do with is the faux “separation of church and state” that secularists have tried to perpetrate on our country as they have attempted to sanitize our Christian heritage from the public square along with any public expression of the Christian faith. That’s why I called Jefferson the “patron saint” of secularists–they have perverted his statement about separation of church and state (intended to assure the Danbury Baptists that government would not interfere with their freedom of religion) into a doctrine of secularization not endorsed or supported by the Constitution.

    You are right to point out the actual language of the First Amendment, and I appreciate that, as well as the fact that the phrase “separation of church and state” was not really used until after Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists. That’s more than many atheists will admit, and I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness about it.

    Locke’s work was indeed instrumental to the doctrines expressed in our founding documents. Unfortunately Locke, too, has been somewhat misappropriated by secularists (not saying you are, as I see no evidence of that here–just pointing out that it happens sometimes). Locke seems to have been a Bible-believing Christian and while he wisely understood that state-run churches and church-run states were invitations to abuse, neither does his work support the kind of campaign of secularist cleansing of the public square that has been carried on for the past 50 years or so.

    No one that I know wants a theocracy. But no civilization rises devoid of a value system, and we do understand from the clear record of the founders that it was the Judeo-Christian value system that influenced the rise of ours and is the foundation of our legal and governmental system.

    One of the many wonderful aspects of the American system is that even with so much owed to the Christian worldview (see “Democracy in America” for elaboration), all faiths (and no faith at all) have enjoyed such unparalleled freedom of conscience here.

  17. It’s not a matter of imposing my religious beliefs on government. Remember when I said earlier that no civilization, no government, can rise without the influence of a system of belief, a moral system?

    The difference in a theocracy and what we have here in the US is really the difference between a top-down structure versus a bottom-up structure.

    In a theocracy, religious belief is enforced downward onto a people by a religious institution, dictating not only moral behavior but moral belief and perhaps most distinctively important, theological belief.

    In the United States, where we have no church-run state or state-run church, the government does not dicate theological belief to the people as happens in a theocracy (see most Islamic countries of today for examples). Rather, in America the religious belief os the people flow upward to affect our legal and governmental systems. Since we always have been a Christian people (even today, after decades of demonization and minimization by secularists, more than 80% of Americans still identify with Christianity), we tend to elect leaders and lawmakers who share our same value system. These leaders make and enforce laws that are generally in harmony with that same value system.

    A great resource for understanding more about how this happens–and what makes America unique in this regard–is “Democracy in America” by the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville. Don’t read the abridged version (it has edited out nearly all of the religious references), but the unabridged version. I have some excerpts to look for here.

    As the quotes I provided earlier point out, our government and system of laws was founded on the Judeo-Christian value system. And though there are some sad exceptions to that today (such as the contempt for private property displayed in our laws of a more socialist bent), the bulk of our way of life remains founded on this value system.

    The founders were wise enough to realize that circumstances would come along where further clarification of the principles outlined in the Declaration of Independence and original Constitution would be required. They provided for this through the Article V amendment process. This is the proper way to change our government and legal system. Unfortunately, through the corruption of many public officials and the inattention of many American citizens, we have allowed our lawmakers to ignore this proper and only avenue for change, and have allowed them to make laws that are in direct violation of the Constitution, the highest law of our land. Fortunately, a historic number of Americans are now awake (with more waking up all the time) to our mistake, and are beginning once again to insist that our government abide by its legal mandate.

    You asked, “How is making a law banning two men from getting married constitutional in this day and age?” There are a number of things that must be said to properly answer this question, and I hope I cover them all without forgetting one or more.

    First, the constitution is silent on both the matter of homosexual behavior and marriage. The Constitution was never meant to be an all-inclusive list of rights and wrongs, but a guiding set of principles for the values our government was designed to protect, and how it was designed to protect them. Matters not addressed by the Constitution are left free for lawmakers to legislate, so long as that legislation does not violate one of the principles outlind in the Constitution.

    Sexuality is a basic, fundamental human behavior and relationship, and it transcends one or all governments; indeed, it existed before the very first government, and would continue to in the sudden absence of any government. The same is true of marriage. It is a basic human institiution.

    Because these behaviors and institutions are so fundamental to human existence, and because their abuse holds such dire consequences for society and the individuals that make up society. Since I am a Christian, our country was founded on Christian principles, and most Americans still call themselves Christians, I will concentrate on how the Christian value system responds to humans sexuality and marriage. In short, we see sexuality as created by God, to be exercised within the sanctity of marriage–an institution of God from the very beginning of humanity for one man and one woman to come together and create a family. In addition to long-established religious doctrine (not only of the Christian faith but of every major faith), modern research has shown us that the best environment for raising healthy, well-adjusted children is within a home with husband and wife as parents. That same research has shown us that the absence of one or the other parent leads to problems in child development–problems that are seldom overcome even when a step-parent is introduced later to help take up some of the slack. Children not only need two parents, they need to parents with a biological bond of love and concern, and of opposite sexes so that proper behavior by both sexes is modeled for the children, and so that cooperation and complimentary behavior between the sexes is modeled for the children.

    Becuase of this and more (another example: every society needs to replenish its numbers and grow, and homosexuals are by definition incapable of contributing to this societal need), society protects the institution of marriage and discourages counterproductive homosexual behavior. As our own culture over the past 50 years has begun to fail to do this, we have seen academic problems rise along with juvenile delinquency and crime, as well as a proliferation of depression, substance abuse and suicide as both teens and adults find it ever-harder to live with themselves after having a screwed-up childhood. Society’s problems are further exacerbated by the breakdown of normality–especially sexual normality–by the growing acceptance of homosexual behavior. This behavior and societal acceptance of it only adds to the confusion our young people are facing as they attempt to determine what is right and healthy for them in their lives. The rebellious attitude homosexual activists bring to the societal table (rebellious against morality and normality, to begin with) spills over into other areas and fosters contempt for healthy tradition, respect for law and authority, and much more. The Bible contains a brief description of this mental process and some of its effects in Romans chapter one.

    So that, basically, is why the state has a compelling interest in ensuring basic human sexuality is not publicly perverted, and that the institution of marriage is not subverted or counterfeited. I wrote at greater length on that subject here and here, if you’re interested.

    You also brought up the subject of homosexual behavior and how it was viewed in the time of the founders. You are right that homosexual behavior has been around a lot longer than the founders, and if you check history you’ll find that while it was tolerated in some societies over the millennia, it was never accepted as normal, was frequently a part of the downfall of many nations, and was condemned by most, especially after the rise of the Christian era. Indeed, in the time of the founders, homosexual behavior was strongly condemned and was against the law. General George Washington also discharged a soldier found guilty of homosexual behavior during the Revolution. It was most worthy of their time and effort to discourage, but again, it didn’t merit a mention in the Constitution just as adultery, speeding, rape and a host of other immoral and lawless behaviors did not. The Constitution outlined our most deeply-respected principles and the structure for our government; it was not an all-inclusive lawbook.

    Finally, because I know you alluded to it, laws against homosexual behavior are not unconstitutional. This is true because of what I’ve already said (fundamental human institution, state interest in preserving the family, etc.) but also because the American principles laid out in the Declaration and Constitution are about treating everyone equally under the law (before behavior ever enters into the picture–different behaviors demand different response), and about providing equal opportunity to all humans in their basic state of being.

    As stated by Jefferson and others in the Declaration, American principles find that ALL men are created equal, and ALL men are endowed with their inalienable rights by their Creator–implicit here is that this is true regardless of their skin color, age, height, sex, wealth, what church you go to, or any other innate or morally neutral factor. We are all born with the same rights, with those rights being a birthday present to us from our Creator.

    What we do with those rights is another matter entirely. We may use our freedom to live a simple life of working for an employer…or use that freedom to devise a good/service that we can market and make millions. We can use those rights to live in the city or in the country. We can use those rights to worship at the First Baptist Church or to not worship anything at all other than our own intellect. Those are but a few of the freedoms we receive from our Creator.

    But if we choose to exercise our freedom in a manner that is detrimental to those around us, we can and rightfully should expect that behavior to be curtailed.

    When people behave homosexually in the privacy of their own home, no one knows and there has never been an effort to intrude on people’s bedrooms to determine if they are having homosexual sex. They may be harming themselves, but if homosexuals keep their behavior private, they are not really doing damage to society. However, if they insist on displaying this behavior publicly, insisting that society accept it as normal, or if they go so far as to demand the “right” to counterfeit the institution of marriage, society has a duty to reprimand such behavior. It undermines normalcy and societal stability, it undermines marriage and family, and puts the civilization at risk if left undealt with.

    The homosexual is not treated any different based on the same human criteria as any other human being. The homosexual is sometimes treated differently because they choose to behave differently. Behavior can and often should merit different treatment, just as we treat the thief, adulteror, the liar, the perjuror, and so on differently.

    So, in summary, homosexual behavior, like many behaviors, isn’t dealt with in the Constitution, but we can and do have laws to deal with it. These laws have their foundation in religious doctrine (and the doctrine of every major religion agrees, incidentally), but they are also backed up by science, biology and clinical research–all of which reveal that homosexual behavior is not natural and isn’t healthy. Homosexuals are endowed with the same rights that all human beings are, but like all human beings who choose to behave in immoral ways, they may find their public behavior curtailed–not on the basis of their humanity or God-given liberty, but based on their behavior.

  18. Did you see anywhere in this article or anywhere on this website (or anywhere in the public arena, for that matter) where bullying for any reason (losers, fat, skinny, ugly, shy, bookish, tall, short, wearing glasses, poor, or yes, homosexual behavior) was advocated or even defended?

    I don’t believe you did…but implying so is a convenient way of avoiding the truth, isn’t it? That most of today’s agitation over bullying isn’t really about bullying so much as it is about brainwashing children into believing that homosexual behavior is normal, natural and healthy.

    Right?

  19. I’m sorry but that is a flat-out lie. Normal heterosexual society knows there is nothing special about homosexual behavior. Rather, it is a dysfunction, a sexual disorientation that, when given into, leads not only to unnatural sex but a host of physical, mental and emotional anguishes.

    But it can be rejected, just as any dysfunction or behavior can be rejected. Countless people have rejected alcohol abuse, and countless people have rejected the abuse of their bodies through homosexual behavior. Each and every one of them is a testament to the fallacy of the lie you’ve perpetuated here.

    It’s much easier to be comfortable with one’s own moral failures when one believes one is either born that way or can’t change.

  20. I believe what he is trying to point out is the fact that “normality” is widely twisted to fit the schemes and beliefs of social groups, whether right or wrong, in order to make the individuals of that social group feel better about themselves. Which is why there are so many debates on what truely is normal. I may think that all people who wear trenchcoats in all types of weather is abnormal behavior, but I don’t try to stop them from doing it. I am comfortable with myself the way I am, therefore I have no problem with the way others behave if thier behavior does not do anyone in immediate and present danger. Being “normal” is a state of mind that only you can decide for yourself. Some pediphiles believe that their behavior is “normal.” However, their behavior puts children in clear and present danger. Homosexuality causes no clear and present danger to anyone. And please don’t say something about aides or other std’s, that is just stupidity on the part of those who have unprotected sex (straight or gay). Conforming to the norm may actually put your self in a sort of mental danger. I know if I were to conform myself to the christian belief system I would go insane. Not being able to think my own thoughts or being able to learn something new that stepped out of what they considered the norm would destroy my rational sanity. I am sure you feel the same. But for me, there is no way I could follow any religion that reverses science back to the time of Ptolemy and Capernicus. Time machines do exist, it’s called the Bible.

  21. Normality is actually measurable and quantifiable.

    What is natural is usually what is normal. For instance, when we drop something and it falls, that is normal; when water is heated to 212 degrees F, it boils; when we are injured, we feel pain; when a man and a woman get married, children usually follow.

    “Normal” is what usually flows from a specific set of actions or circumstances, and the law of averages is usually vastly on its side. For example, it is normal for most people to enter a store and pay for an item(s) they wish to purchase. When someone tries to walk out of the store without paying for something, that is not normal.

    In the context of this article, we know what normal sexuality is: heterosexual sex. Thousands of years of history with only a small portion of humanity practicing homosexuality (a survey commissioned by a pro-homosexual group two years ago found 2.9% of the population is homosexual) affirms that heterosexual behavior is normal. Additionally, the design and complimentary function of the male and female sex organs makes it clear that they were designed to be used in a heterosexual fashion–this is what is normal.

    It matters little whether a person is comfortable with a particular disfunction, disease or delusion; if their condition is not normal, it is not normal. I was once quite comfortable drinking most of a fifth of vodka in a night, but by no objective measure was my behavior “normal.”

    “Normal” and normalcy are not subjective. This is another lie of the postmodern world which pretends we can bend reality to suite our own dysfunctions, perversions or misbehaviors. The lie is comfortable to some for the short-term…just as morphine is more comfortable than the surgery of excision need to remove a malignant tumor.

    Finally, I, too, could not follow any religion that ignored the modern discoveries of science and pretended that real things were not real.

    Fortunately for me as a Christian, Christianity is not so obtuse or primitive. None of the truth-claims of the Bible–neither moral nor historical nor scientific–have been disproven, nor are they in conflict with anything we know (distinguished from what we assume) from modern science.

  22. You are persistent here. Maybe that’s a good sign. However, all the mental gymnastics in the world will not change the truth into a lie.

    You believe the lie and reject the truth. You believe that knowing God and living as best you can by His precepts would drive you “insane” and rob you of your ability to think for yourself. You could not be more wrong. Without God, you don’t know the taste of true freedom.

    The Big Lie of the world that keeps you enslaved is the very thing you believe. Through Jesus only is true freedom. Cling to the “wisdom” of the world, and you’re a slave for eternity.

  23. A bit of interesting reading from Wiki:
    Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual, bisexual and transgender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting.[21] Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom: a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[21][24] Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied.[203] According to Bagemihl, “the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity—including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex—than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept.”

  24. Oops, accidentally liked your responce instead of replying. Anyhoo:

    Lady, the only reason I am still on this blog is for the mental gymnastics. I could care less about your religious banter. Bob has been a fun challange for me, he is well versed not only in the Bible but in history. I enjoy conversing with him. I may not agree with his beliefs, but I do respect him as a person.

    Your vain attempt at a religious assult is laughable. Unlike Bob, you lack the conversational prowess to logically debate anything with me. I don’t expect to change his mind anymore then he expects to change mine.

  25. Yet you will find that, like among humans, it occurs in only a small percentage of cases. It is far from the norm, making it aberrant and abnormal.

    And unlike animals, human beings have intelligence and a free will with which to control their aberrant impulses.

    There is simply no other way to slice it: homosexual behavior is not normal.

  26. I do hope to give you something to think about, though, and hope I have already. 🙂

  27. Sorry, mister, but that was not a “vain attempt at a religious assault.” I was just telling you the truth.

    You are clueless about my “conversational prowess” and my ability to debate with you. But, you have now given Bob a plain message that he is clearly wasting his time with you, since you have misunderstood his hopes for you. He would not spend all this time on you without a hope that somehow you might one day “get it.”

    Your cynicism will be your undoing.

  28. I have read some of your blogs. You simply do not interest me.

    I am sure Bob would like me to “get it” but I am sure that he knows I will not. He hopes to give me something to think about just as I do him. If we never question ourselves or our beliefs, there is no room for self improvement.

  29. As do I for you, Bob. Analyzing is a wonderful way to pass the time. As always, good talking to you Bob.

  30. Oh, and Gina,

    “The Big Lie of the world that keeps you enslaved is the very thing you believe.”

  31. No. Bob does not “know” you will not get it, or he would not waste his time trying to help you see past the Big Lie. Bob takes the time with you for very different reasons than you spend time trying to intellectually one-up him. He holds out hope that one day the Lord will open your eyes.

  32. You’re assuming that geocentrism and the other things you mentioned were Biblical teachings; they weren’t. Some within the church foolishly adopted these secular beliefs, just as some have foolishly embraced modern secular beliefs like evolution and so forth, but they were never teachings of the Bible.

    I wouldn’t put much stock in carbon dating, either. It is itself based on several assumptions, few if any of which can be scientifically verified. The same goes for other forms of radiometric dating. You see, a “dating” technique that dates freshly slaughtered animals at thousands of years old, or 30 year old rocks at 2.8 million years old is laughably unscientific.

    Meanwhile, the geological and fossil evidence points strongly toward catastrophism only a few thousand years ago. It really blows the theory of a 4.5 billion year old earth and live evolving over millions of years out of the water.

  33. Based on personal experience and a number of polls conducted in the last two years, yes, most Tea Partiers are Christians. The Tea Party movement itself is about limited government and fiscal conservatism, so we join forces in this area with others who aren’t Christians but are concerned about out-of-control government.

  34. Thanks. This question had nothing to do with our previous conversation. I was merely curious.

  35. No problem.

  36. No problem.

  37. Not only some in the church accepted these teachings. They were widely accepted by the church. In fact, Galileo was forbid by the church to teach anything different then geocentric principles. The church eventually started accepting otherwise only after the scientific revolution. During which time, secularism became more popular among the highly educated. To be more accurate, they became Deists, not atheists.

  38. Yes, quite a few within the church embraced these ill-advised secular ideas. Nevertheless, this points to the failings and fallacies of human beings–especially when they substitute what finite man thinks for what the infinite God says. If they’d stuck with God, they never would have latched onto a flawed theory, just as many are doing today.

  39. It doesn’t. The Bible makes a number of scientific claims, but geocentrism/heliocentrism is not one of them.

    The mistake of some of the clergy in Galileo’s day was in jumping onboard with an unproven theory, and then essentially making theological doctrine out of it. It didn’t help that Galileo was a bit of a jerk when it came to presenting his case, but some in the church went too far in applying what they thought they knew scientifically as if it were theological doctrine.

    The serious Christian should never believe less than what God is said is true…but neither should he get ahead of God and assume something is true that (a) God hasn’t addressed and (b) hard science hasn’t demonstrated either.

  40. I believe hard science can prove theories, period. In some cases, there is enough available hard science to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt. In other cases, there simply isn’t enough information to do so.

    If radiometric dating wasn’t based on so many assumptions–or if those assumptions could be proven and thus no longer be assumptions–and known samples could be dated consistently with a high degree of accuracy, then one of two things would happen: either the timeline of the Bible would be proven right, or it would be proven wrong. And if it was proven wrong, the whole thing would be pretty much worthless.

    The thing is, radiometric dating is worthless. When samples of a known age give wildly inaccurate readings, we would be foolish to believe the readings of unknown samples (yet many people are this foolish). When different dating methods used on the same sample give wildly different results, we would again be foolish to put our faith in these dating methods (yet many people do).

    I used to believe the Bible’s claims about creation and the age of the earth were at best allegorical. That was before I knew radiometric dating and so many of the things passed off as “science” was nothing but biased guesswork. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, I was told…but I couldn’t help looking.

  41. How aboout this veiwpoint. There are several places in the Bible that state “one day to God is like 1000 years to man.” Now, according to Eisteins theory of relativity, what we observe is relative to our veiwpoint. On earth, the scentists state that the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years old while interpertations of the Bible say it is only about 6000 years old. Now, couldn’t it be stated that the age in the Bible is may seem correct in your God’s eyes but here on earth the age is actually quite a bit older? 4.5 billion to be exact. This would indicate that in the six days it took God to create the earth, it was acually 6000 earth years. Everything subsiquent to that, including missing gaps of time, start adding up.

  42. Some Christians do believe that passage indicates that each creation day in Genesis chapter 1 is 1,000 years. Unfortunately that doesn’t allow nearly enough time to harmonize with the claims and assumptions of evolutionists and other ancient-earth proponents.

    Shall we then multiply it several times and say each creation day is a million years? Still not enough. A billion? Well, now we have enough…but considerably more than secular scientists claim (4.5 billion). We also have the problem, Biblically speaking, that we’ve now distorted the “day as a thousand years” passage far out of its meaning, too.

    No, read contextually, 2 Peter chapter 3 is talking about the timeless nature of God. He exists outside the flow of time we experience, and while 1,000 years may seem like a very long time to us, it is no time at all to God.

    There’s really no reason to interpret the statements of Genesis chapter 1 and 2 Peter 3:8 other than how each is meant contexually. I’ve already explained the context of 2 Peter 3:8, and if you read the context of Genesis 1 ( day and night, light and dark, morning and evening, over and over), it is clearly meant to indicate six 24-hour periods.

    The only reason one might try to read something else into this very plain language and try to extrapolate some vast passage of time would be if there was reason to believe that there actually was some vast time period missing from Biblical chronology.

    And as I’ve pointed out, there isn’t. The geological column offers no proof, only guesswork and assumptions. Radiometric dating offers no proof, only guesswork and assumptions. The geological record actually points more strongly to quick and catastrophic deposition and fossilization, not a lengthy, ancient process.

    So as you see, there is simply no reason, Biblical or extra-Biblical, to assume that Genesis chapter 1 is talking about anything other than six 24-hour days.

    And really, if you can believe Genesis 1:1, every other truth claim in the Bible is oh so easy to believe.

  43. Some Christians do believe that passage indicates that each creation day in Genesis chapter 1 is 1,000 years. Unfortunately that doesn’t allow nearly enough time to harmonize with the claims and assumptions of evolutionists and other ancient-earth proponents.

    Shall we then multiply it several times and say each creation day is a million years? Still not enough. A billion? Well, now we have enough…but considerably more than secular scientists claim (4.5 billion). We also have the problem, Biblically speaking, that we’ve now distorted the “day as a thousand years” passage far out of its meaning, too.

    No, read contextually, 2 Peter chapter 3 is talking about the timeless nature of God. He exists outside the flow of time we experience, and while 1,000 years may seem like a very long time to us, it is no time at all to God.

    There’s really no reason to interpret the statements of Genesis chapter 1 and 2 Peter 3:8 other than how each is meant contexually. I’ve already explained the context of 2 Peter 3:8, and if you read the context of Genesis 1 ( day and night, light and dark, morning and evening, over and over), it is clearly meant to indicate six 24-hour periods.

    The only reason one might try to read something else into this very plain language and try to extrapolate some vast passage of time would be if there was reason to believe that there actually was some vast time period missing from Biblical chronology.

    And as I’ve pointed out, there isn’t. The geological column offers no proof, only guesswork and assumptions. Radiometric dating offers no proof, only guesswork and assumptions. The geological record actually points more strongly to quick and catastrophic deposition and fossilization, not a lengthy, ancient process.

    So as you see, there is simply no reason, Biblical or extra-Biblical, to assume that Genesis chapter 1 is talking about anything other than six 24-hour days.

    And really, if you can believe Genesis 1:1, every other truth claim in the Bible is oh so easy to believe.

  44. The thread between you and Bob is too skinny, so I reply here.

    The “day is as a thousand years to the Lord” Scripture is only to illustrate that God is not bound by time; He is eternal. He exists outside of time, above us. The rest of His Word describes events that are in the time to which we relate. That Scripture was simply a metaphor.

  45. I seldom reply through the comment system as it’s laid out on the article page, so thanks for bringing the skinny thread to our attention, Gina.

  46. You would think Disqus would have had enough complaints about that by now. Stopping the indention at a certain point makes sense–not letting the thread get to single word width.

  47. Then by using the same logic that is applied to modern science by Bob, whereas since there is a few anomalies in some of the results of dating material, all results are bogus. In this case, since there is one metaphor in the Bible, it stands to reason that there are many more. This, by your standards, creates doubt that any of the Words of God are true, just metaphors. Picking and choosing phrases from a book that helps you believe and passing off the rest metaphors does not make a convincing argument that your beliefs and interpretations are correct. Now, if the book actually stated, “this next phrase is meant to be a metaphor,” I would put more credence to the interpretations of the context. That is why there is always so much debate between the religious sects an what is the true word of God. If it was all taken literally, this would be one messed up world, and if it was all dismissed as metaphors it would virtually be useless. Unfortunately, you cannot believe everything that you hear or read. So yes, there are truths interlaced within the stories of the Bible. However, this does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a all supreme being that designed us all. My guess is that since every society needs some type of rules or “laws” to live peaceably together, stories of peoples actions ad the consequences of those actions were recorded in a book in order to keep the peace. There are bits and pieces of all religions that correlate with all religious beliefs. These pieces have been linked together to almost the beginning of time. Time being correlated to the first written words and hieroglyphics, not saying that time actually began at this point. When the stories that could only be told through spoken word were able to be written down, they had evolved into something supernatural. This can be explained by the fact that if there is something that “man” does not understand, we usually fear this anomaly, and can only explain it as supernatural. The same can be applied when we see recognizable object s in a rock formation, a face or something more substantial, that has no known explanation of how it got there, it is either thought that some higher being put it there(God, or sometimes aliens) or a more logical explanation of wind, rain, or other natural erosion. It is simply what you choose to believe it to be. I live by reason, not by a system of beliefs based on the supernatural because I may not understand how it came to be.

  48. No, it only means that you must read it contextually. Ever single written document that exists or has ever existed (a novel, a history book, a science book, a love letter, an owner’s manual, a recipe, etc) has to be read contextually in order to be properly understood. The fact that the same is true of the Bible is no revelation; it’s a simple fact of communication–even oral.

    Here’s an illustration often used by the Answers in Genesis ministry: Back in my father’s day, it took 10 days to drive across the Australian outback during the day. Now reading contextually, you understand that there are three different meanings for the word “day” here…and you don’t have to be a genius to understand each of them either. Back in my father’s “general time period when he was active” it took 10 24-hour days to drive across the Australian outback when driving only during the daylight period of each day.

    Or if you write a love letter to your hunny whom you haven’t seen in a while: “Baby, I miss you so bad it hurts. It’s killing me not to see you! When are you going to come around and give me some sugar?” Now contextually, everyone understands that you are not addressing an infant, even though you referred to her as “Baby.” We probably also understand that you are not in physical agony because you miss her, nor are you in danger of dying. We also get it that you don’t want to know when she will deliver a bag of sweetener to you, but rather when you might receive a kiss from her.

    There are a few passages in the Bible where it is difficult to understand and distinguish between a description of something real and a metaphor. The book of Revelation is a prime example. But the overwhelming majority of the Bible is abundantly clear when read in context.

    Some people try to take the easy way out and dismiss the whole Bible because it uses some metaphors, and because some parts of it are hard to understand. Interestingly, while a few might, most people would not treat a history book, a science book, a math book or an owner’s manual for their DVD player in the same manner. No, they would read it and try to learn what they could from it, and in the difficult parts, they would hopefully apply a little more mental elbow-grease.

    As I’ve said before, not a single truth claim (not a moral one, not a scientific one, not a historical one) has been proven false or inaccurate in over 3,000 years. No history book has such a record–we frequently find out that this or that history book relied on an embellished claim that was later proven false. And science books (given the modern predilection for confusing fact for assumption) reveal errors even more quickly.

    If you’re willing to crack open a science or history book and search for knowledge, there’s no reason why you couldn’t open the Bible with an open mind and take it for a spin.

  49. You’re right that translation from one language to another results in some loss in meaning, a great deal of that can be regained with careful study. Even without careful study, however, the vast majority of it (98%, I’d guess) is transmitted without a problem.

    We can’t know anything with 100% certainty, but we have some pretty good clues as to the accuracy of the Bible. We have a lot of partial transcripts that go back nearly 2,000 years, and there are almost no differences (certainly none that affect doctrinal truth) between later copies and ancient copies–quite a feat, considering the printing press is only about 500 years old. And we can take the track record of reliability of the Old Testament back even further with the Greek Septuagint translation from the Hebrew. What’s more, the Jews were very, shall we say, fanatical about getting it right when they transferred God’s meaning–and with good reason. And many of those scientific and historical statements in that Old Testament? None have been proved inaccurate, and quite a few were way ahead of the archaeological evidence (in other words, there were claims in the Bible about historical event that had no extra-Biblical support for many hundreds of years…and eventually archaeological evidence was unconvovered which proved the previously unsubstantiated claims to be true.

    No, the Bible doesn’t provide the answer to every scientific or historical question. It isn’t intended to. It’s intended to be a general account of how the universe came to be in the state we find it, about God’s greatness and goodness, about the state of humanity as imperfect and sinful creatures, and ultimately about God’s love and the lengths to which he has gone to restore our broken relationship with him.

    I understand that you’ve read the Bible before, and that a lot of questions you had in your earlier days didn’t get answered. A lot of us were there at one point, myself included. The choice is yours, obviously, but I would just encourage you to give it a fresh look with all the years you’ve had since then to learn, and hopefully maybe a thing or two I’ve said might have provided some useful insight.