Mercy for the Terrorist: Death to Terri Schiavo

By Carrie K. Hutchens on May 18th, 2009

Protesters outside Terri Schiavo's hospice, March 27, 2005 (Credit: Dbenbenn)

Protesters outside Terri Schiavo's hospice, March 27, 2005 (Credit: Dbenbenn)

The Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation continues to move ahead in the fight to save victims from the “kill ‘em off” sector of our society.

This sector that includes people (and groups) from the judicial and healthcare systems, as well as those from the movement intent to insure (and force) everyone’s right-to-die and those who have fallen prey to the campaign to rid society of any deemed as defective and non-productive in our modern day world.

Terri Schindler Schiavo mysteriously collapsed on February 25, 1990. She was 26 years old.

Though Terri’s husband was heavily conflicted — being alone with her (a healthy young woman) when she collapsed and then being the beneficiary to an exceedingly large sum should she die, while all the while failing to fill out the required guardianship reports — he was allowed, through a flawed system, to move her into a death row of the innocent. He was allowed to start the process that would end up killing her off while the world looked on.

It doesn’t matter if Michael Schiavo was responsible or not for the original collapse of Terri — there were questions unanswered. Until those questions were fully answered in a satisfactory manner, he should not have been the decision-maker in Terri’s care — health or otherwise.

Even more reason to remove Michael Schiavo from the decision table was his involvement with another woman. An involvement that included living with and having children with her. He married her soon after Terri’s death.

The appearance of conflict, as briefly covered, should have been enough for the court to remove this man as guardian of the wife who stood in his way of initially inheriting nearly a million dollars and marrying the mother of his children.

It should have been, but it wasn’t.

Judge George Greer sentenced Terri Schindler Schiavo to death by starvation and dehydration.

The execution of Terri Schiavo took nearly fourteen (14) days to complete. It was a horrendous death that only fools would call peaceful and painless. Sadly, there were, and still are, many fools. Along with the fools come many ironies.

Waterboarding is the topic of the moment. The shouts of it being torture, wrong and an outrageous crime can be readily heard throughout the day. Where were these voices when Terri Schiavo was being tortured to death? Yes, tortured to death. There was no simulating of anything. She was actually starved and dehydrated to death as the world watched and the system shamefully failed.

The court ruled to end Terri’s life based on conflicted interest and conflicted testimony. Outside the testimony from those with conflicted interest, there was no testimony that suggested Terri would wish to die, especially a death by starvation and dehydration– A death that goes beyond any torture that any may have experienced as a result of waterboarding. But then, so selective are many of those who would shout against torture of a terrorist while condoning the torture-filled death sentence of Terri Schiavo.

Heaven forbid if a murderer suffered for three minutes, or a terrorist was tortured by simulation, but quite acceptable if an innocent young woman suffered excruciating pain for nearly 14 days? The irrational “reasoning” process that is necessary for this conflict of thought is frightening. Even more frightening is how many of those in power appear to be suffering from this very process.

The Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation founders know what it is to fight desperately to save an innocent family member from a flawed system and from the influences of a movement that has gone far beyond defending a person’s right to refuse care–to people being denied care. And it is in this knowing of what it is like that these founders continue in their efforts to help others win the battle they themselves so sadly lost.  Their efforts include but are not limited to educating the public on health care rights and what is really happening to many of our most vulnerable: the sick or disabled.

The foundation website informs readers about it’s radio program:

America’s Lifeline airs every Saturday at 3:00 PM ET on Talk Radio 860 WGUL in Tampa, Florida.

America?s Lifeline is also streamed worldwide via the internet at Talk Radio 860 WGUL. For those outside the Tampa area, simply click on the 860 WGUL TALK RADIO logo to LISTEN LIVE! to the program airing every Saturday at 3:00 PM ET!

What the website doesn’t say, but I do, is…

If the waterboarding of a terrorist is wrong — what might it be to “righteously” sentence an innocent to death by starvation and dehydration? In a rational world: beyond possible!

Carrie Hutchens is a former law enforcement officer and a freelance writer who is active in fighting against the death culture movement and the injustices within the judicial and law enforcement systems.

Note: Reader comments are reviewed before publishing, and only salient comments that add to the topic will be published. Profanity is absolutely not allowed and will be summarily deleted. Spam, copied statements and other material not comprised of the reader’s own opinion will also be deleted.

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Categories: Commentary
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  • DCM
    I never got the impression that Terri really could have recovered no matter what the treatment. That said, I never understood why her husband didn't just divorce her and leave her for her parents to care for. For a long time it seemed to be about the money, but didn't that run out at some point?
  • From everything I have read, she could have improved considerably...had her "husband" allowed her to receive the therapy she was supposed to get. But no, every indication is that she would never fully recover and be whole again. Nevertheless, from other comments you have made I'm guessing you and I are on the same page which says that disability isn't justification for killing someone.

    As to what remained of the trust fund, I have seen figures that $200,000 or more of that may have remained (after paying sharks like Felos and other lawyers hundreds of thousands to get her killed), though Michael Schiavo claimed only about $50,000 remained. Still, there are people out there who would kill for $100 or less.

    I suspect money was what it was about at the beginning (wanting a good stash of loot with which to start his new life with his new woman), and probably still was even at the end, though by then he had dug himself in as a "death with dignity" crusader to such a point that he probably probably convinced himself that was his original and only motive.

    In the end, though, the state was complicit in the murder of a disabled woman. She was NOT brain dead and she was NOT the unconscious, unfeeling vegetable the "mainstream" media desperately wanted people to think she was.

    I have seen the many videos of her trying to talk to her parents, laughing, following a moving object with her eyes, showing signs of recognition of her parents, showing unpleasant facial response to negative stimuli, etc. Brain dead people don't do any of that.

    The morphine she was given as they dehydrated her to death also reveals this for the lie it was; if she was just a hunk of meat as they claimed, she wouldn't have felt the pain and discomfort of being starved and dehydrated to death.

    I struggle with even asking God to have mercy on our society for having eagerly sought the murder of a disabled woman, because we certainly don't deserve any more mercy than we showed to her.
  • DCM
    The media seemed to make a pretty strong case that she WAS an "unconscious, unfeeling vegetable," including statements that the videos making her appear at all cognizant were bits taken out of context. It never occurred to me that such statements could be as blatantly false as you say; but then, it's not like the media hasn't lied to me before, and in cases where I knew darn well they were lying.
  • I don't think anyone has tried to misrepresent the videos into a statement that she was always in this same state of cognizance and response. However, you are right that the "mainstream" media did indeed try very, very hard to minimize these multiple videos taken on multiple occasions and claim they meant nothing. But the simple reality is, if she was like this even only once a year (and I believe it was far more frequent than that), then she was obviously not a brain-dead hunk of meat. There was obviously still human life left in this woman's body, and no where have I ever hears it posited that when a person is unconscious and sleeping, it is okay to kill them and it wouldn't be murder to kill them in an unconscious state.

    You're also right about the media. These days it seems they lie more than they tell the true story. And along with the pro-euthanasia cult, they worked very hard to portray an image to the American people that Terri Schiavo was brain-dead and simply a hair's-breadth from death anyway.
  • Brian Rutledge
    The author claims to know that Mrs. Schiavo suffered terribly. After taking care of many patients who have had massive brain trauma and all life support ( fluids and nutrition) then removed, i cant say whether suffering occured. There is simply no way to measure it. How does the author claim to have that knowledge ?

    You could make the case that since we dont know, that we must take no chances, but you cant make the claim that you have some insight or knowledge that has baffled mankind for ages. Thus her specific argument is fallacious.
  • Brian, have you seen the videos of Terri looking around, following a moving object with her eyes, trying to talk, laughing, responding to negative stimuli, recognizing her parents, etc.? That isn't brain-dead, my friend. That is a cognitive person, and our society cheered her murder. I'd ask God to have mercy on us, if I thought we deserved it in the slightest.

    If the videos of her weren't enough, the fact that they put her on morphine as they starved and dehydrated her to death speaks volumes. There is no need to alleviate the pain of a steak left out on the counter for 13 days.
  • Brian Rutledge
    Yes i saw those videos and i also saw videos where she couldnt do any of the above you mentioned. I also saw her CT brain scan which was severely abnormal and showed massive brain damageand shrinkage. She hadnt improved in years with therapy. Why would you say you think she could improve had she not died. Brain shrinkage doesnt reverse itself

    I also dont think fluids and nutrition should have been removed. My only comment was that there is no way the author of the article could have known 'how much' suffering Mrs. Schiavo underwent before or after withdrawal of fluids.No one can evaluate that unless the patient tells you or is writhing or grimacing in pain which i heard no reports of. Patients I have cared for sink into coma and we just cant tell so we give morphine prophylactically . Its called an attempt to relieve suffering if you not sure.

    The author wasnt there and is only going on supposition. I would invite her to go to a hospice unit and observe similiar cases and then she might have a better understanding

    Again, I was against pulling support, but the author went to far in saying she knew the degree of suffering.
  • Carrie K. Hutchens
    Brian, Terri didn't receive years of therapy. Therapy stopped about time the check arrived and the DNR issued. It was also about that time that she became more isolated than not and we know what lack of stimulation does to a person's well-being.

    Anyone who has suffered from dehydration knows it is painful. How painful must it be after nearly 14 days? It's something most would not like to find out, I'm sure.

    I wasn't there when this happened to Terri, but I have had long discussions with some who were. I have reason to believe she suffered as intensely as I suggested. I certainly know that she didn't look more beautiful than she ever had before, as Felos tried to suggest.

    I have sat with people who were passing on, so I am quite aware of what transpires during those events. Likewise, I'm assuming the patients you were caring for, were actually dying and not made to die. That is one of the major differences between the Schiavo case and most who are in hospice. I doubt therefore that I would be able to observe a similar case. Actually, I know I wouldn't because I would be fighting for that person's life, if it were a similar situation and they were trying to kill someone off for being sick or disabled and in the way.
  • Because medical authorities had planned to provide therapy for her which would have given her a better quality of life and likely enabled her to eat food without the feeding tube...had her "husband" not been so hell-bent on killing her. I also never said brain shrinkage reverses itself.

    As to her suffering, I'll say it again since it seems so hard for some people to accept. The woman was clearly cognitive at times: trying to talk to her parents, laughing, following a moving object with her eyes, showing signs of recognition of her parents, showing unpleasant facial response to negative stimuli, and so on. And if she had been the brain-dead hunk of meat that was worth no more than starving and dehydrating to death that some claimed she was, there would have been no need for the morphine they "humanely" gave her as they killed her.

    If medical or other first-hand experience is allegedly necessary to understand the issue at hand, my mother is a retired nursing home nurse who has seen countless patients of varying degrees of cognizance die, and she thought what they did to Terri Schiavo was criminally barbaric.

    The author wasn't there...but neither is the author a complete moron either. Given what I just stated, only a moron or someone with a pro-death agenda could know the facts and assume Terri Schiavo did not suffer.
  • Brian Rutledge
    Again, I feel the tubes shouldnt have been removed and Ms. Schiavo was in rehab for three years but continued to show no improvement. Six separate neurologists and an Internist all diagnosed her as being in a persistent vegetative state. Her CT scan looked horrendous. You can review it on the internet

    All that being said-it doesnt matter because she was alive and should have been cared for and fed no matter what her brain capacity was. All i am questioning is the extreme degree of suffering that Ms. Hutchens claims she knows for sure happened. I know the room was guarded heavily after the tubes were removed and very few were privy to seeing her close up and for long peroids of time. If Ms. hutchens says she taked to several who were in close, direct contact with Terri then of course i believe her. My question to Ms. hutchens would be , what did these people say what Terri's specific symptoms were that led them to believe severe suffering occured . Bob, if it is true that she was clearly cognitive at times and laughing, then her suffering and symptoms would have been just as obvious. So again i ask Ms. hutchens, what were the symptoms that the people you talk to indicated that indicated severe suffering.
  • I don't know why simple matters of human existence and life and death seem to be so complicated for someone who otherwise appears very intelligent, but since my memory of the exact details has faded somewhat over the intervening years and Carrie probably has these facts more closely at hand, I'll wait for her to address them specifically.
  • More info
    "Put her on Morphine"?

    Which you mean to imply she was treated with morphine for pain relief?

    Treated with morphine for pain relief in the way that is usual and customary for hospice (palliative care) patients?

    As in you are wanting to imply that Terri Schiavo was treated with morphine in the same way terminal cancer patients treated with morphine to control pain?

    According to the autopsy report she received morphine only TWICE and both of these doses were via suppository.

    Not by injection. Not orally. Not with a pump.

    TWO doses.

    Each was 5mg.

    Given 7 days apart (per the autopsy the doses were given on march 19 and then march 26)

    Whether these doses were given at the discretion of a nurse based on standing orders from the primary physician isn't made clear. What is clear is that this doesn't even come close to typical or usual.

    Assuming the purpose was pain relief a typical dose peaks approx 1 hour after administration and has a duration specified as <6hours. In other words it is just plain misleading to claim "she was put on morphine" for pain relief since two doses spaced seven days apart would have provided little or no pain relief and hospice personal are VERY familiar with morphine and what is required in the way of PROPER dosages for pain control.

    http://www6.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/pdf_files/...

    The info on morphine administration by the hospice is on page 35 of the Adobe .pdf file version of the autopsy report.
  • Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? You must either not be very bright, or your zeal to see people die has clouded your judgment.

    The report does say that two doses of morphine were given.

    WHY were they given?

    We might guess. Would you provide pain relief to a steak on the grill? Would you provide pain relief to someone who was dead? Would you provide pain relief to someone who was brain dead? What would be the point? Sentimentality? An over-supply of drugs on hand? Medical staff didn't have anything better to do?

    People are generally administered pain medication such as morphine to alleviate pain. It therefore seems mind-bogglingly obvious that the morphine was administered to Terri Schiavo to alleviate the pain of being starved and dehydrated to death.

    This woman WAS. NOT. BRAIN. DEAD. (Although I have my suspicions that some people leaving comments here may be). She was filmed multiple times laughing, trying to talk, following a moving object with her eyes, reacting to negative stimuli, recognizing her parents, and more. BRAIN DEAD PEOPLE DON'T DO THAT.

    And if she was not brain-dead when she was killed (which she definitely was not), then she was murdered.

    If you treated a dog the way Terri Schiavo was treated, you'd be up on charges of animal cruelty.

    I pray God does a work in your soul, "More info," because it looks pretty dark, and I wouldn't want to face my Maker with a soul that dark.
  • More info
    You missed the point entirely in your zealousness to spot and label people you think promote a death agenda.

    I thought I was clear but lets try this again:

    If it was their intent to "put her on morphine" for pain relief (from being starved and dehydrated to death) then TWO doses spaced 7 days apart wouldn't have even come close to serving such a purpose.

    If pain relief was their honest intent and purpose it would have required doses given at regular intervals. TWO doses spaced SEVEN DAYS apart would not have accomplished pain relief except for a few hours after each dose.

    As I said in my previous post a dose peaks in effectiveness 1 hour after administration and has a estimated duration of effectiveness of less than 6 hours. This of course isn't accounting for tolerance or how each individual person responds to it or metabolizes it.

    You can ask your retired nurse mother about that...

    You can also ask your retired nurse mother if morphine is ONLY used for pain relief. The answer is no. It is also used when patients have shortness of breath.

    I am aware she was not brain dead. Florida law doesn't require brain death to occur before life support is removed. Florida law recognizes the PVS diagnosis.
  • I don't think there's any point in trying to have a rational conversation with you, More Info. Rational conversations can only be carried on with rational people.

    I agree that the amount of morphine used seems low, but again--why was it used at all?

    Your theory that it was used for shortness of breath is totally asinine. They were trying to kill her. A total shortness of breath was the goal!

    Laws should conform to what is right and oppose what is wrong. However, in this imperfect world with an ever-growing number of people such as yourself who are eager to see the inconvenient killed and out of our way, our laws increasingly excuse and even promote the unethical.

    Someone who was obviously cognizant and reactive as Terri Schiavo should not be murdered because she's an obstacle to someone's goals of fulfillment. The fact that you are so fundamentally oblivious to this is reprehensible.
  • Carrie K. Hutchens
    ." Also in 1990, Michael took Terri to California for experimental brain surgery. He did so without prior court approval, required by Florida’s guardianship statutes. A thalamac stimulator was provided to Terri and she was soon transferred to a rehabilitation facility in Florida.

    In 1991, the rehabilitation center recorded notes indicating Terri was speaking during physical therapy sessions, saying things such as “No”, “Stop” and “Mommy.”

    In July of that year, Terri was transferred to Sable Palms Nursing Facility in Largo, Fl. For a short time following, she was provided physical therapy. This was all stopped in 1991 and was the last documented therapy ever provided to Terri."

    After the trip to California, Michael Schiavo, himself, reportedly said that Terri was improving.

    It is in medical reports that Terri did speak. It is also documented that Michael also said that she did speak.

    Six said that Terri was PVS? And what about those that said that she wasn't?

    There is one CT scan that was on the internet that was quite interesting. Remember the trip to California? Well, the scan in question shows no sign of the implant. There was also another scan alleged to be Terri's, where the implant was in the wrong area of the brain.

    Trying to talk. Sobbing. Tongue swollen. Lips cracking. I'd say that's a good sign that there was some suffering going on that was a little more serious than the discomfort she is alleged to have during her periods.
  • Bill
    PVS is a clinical diagnosis that requires an examination of the patient.

    Before litigation began she had been diagnosed as PVS by the neurologists who treated her.

    The only neurologist to state she was not in a PVS was hired solely for purposes of the trial (was not a treating physician).

    He stated his vasodilation treatments could result in signifcant improvement, but those treatments are considered experimental, and have no known clinical efficacy.

    He was later found guilty by the Florida medical board of financially exploiting a patient.

    Not surprisingly, his testimony was not considered credible at trial.

    And were you ever going to point out that it was the parents' idea that the husband go out and...ummm..."date?"

    There's no evidence he has a relationship with another woman before the parents actively encouraged him to do so.

    That's why it wasn't considered a conflict of interest by the court - the parents had given their enthusiastic approval.
  • Carrie_K_Hutchens
    You are speaking of Dr. William M. Hammesfahr. The actions of the Florida medical board were REVERSED!

    http://www.2dca.org/opinion/March%2026%2C%20200...

    (Looks like the charges were pretty bogus in the first place.)

    Ron Cranford and Bambakidis were also hired for the sole purpose of the trial. Ron Cranford was a right-to-die-activist with an agenda.

    In a video, Cranford indicates that Terri is following the balloon and following his directions. How did that become a nothing event?

    Nevertheless, it was Hammesfahr who spent the most time examining Terri and it was in front of witnesses and video taped. How did that become a nothing event?

    Are you suggesting that the parents told Michael it was okay to date and when he found someone he wanted to marry -- it would be okay to kill off Terri and marry the new woman?
  • DutyHonorCountry
    The day Terri died, a part of my love of country died with her. A country that would allow the execution of an innocent, as it was condoned by the courts. NO ONE deserves the fate she received. Her loving family being allowed only brief visits, and to be patted down like criminals to make sure they had no water, ice, or any thing that could be used to comfort, or save her. I remain distraught to this day. During this process of her death, I could not sleep, or understand how this could be happening in MY country, but then I thought of the daily murder of our unborn and realized it was not just that day, but everyday that the judicial system is stepping on our Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of happiness rights. Her eventual death did save my own soul though, as it confirmed my faith to me, and made me glad that there will be divine authority in the end. Peace be to Terri's soul.
  • Brian Rutledge
    Thank you Ms. Hutchens for replying and I will defer to you on many of the facts of the case because I was not there., which means i had to rely on television and that speaks for itself. I distinctly remember one of the neurologist showing her CT scan which revealed almost complete destruction of her cerebral cortex. i remember it because it was so grossly abnormal, but cant confirm whether or not it was truly hers. Hard to believe that an error like that could be made, but in fact they occasionally do.

    Again, the entire case was tragic and complicated by emotional and ethical dilemmas. Those two combinations often cloud the actual, factual truth in my experience, especially when it comes to the question of exactly how much someone is suffering. As a physician, we are to do no harm and alleviate suffering . The latter is often hard to do because suffering is often more subjective than objective.

    If she did suffer at the end then i suspect she suffered all throughout because she did constantly have to deal with bed sores and being bed ridden. May she rest in peace.
  • I'm sure her life after her collapse was far less than optimum, but a civilized people don't kill the disabled for having bed sores. And "doing no harm" has usually meant not killing the patient.
  • Marcia
    There is absolutely no evidence that Michael Shiavo was involved in any way in the the collapse of his wife. To even imply that he may have been is close to slander by the writer, no matter what the right to life group wishes to believe. Her medical records have all but been microscopically reviewed by both sides. I don't believe that Mr. Schiavo ultimatly benefited from the money receivedI. It was spent on care ond legal expenses. I also believe the husband was also encouraged by Terri's family to date after her collapse. I sympathize with both Terri's husband and parents. To lose a child, no matter what age is a terrible thing and heart wrenching. But, in my world, I would hope my husband has the final say.
  • D
    In your world, you would hope your husband has the final say. What if your husband already had another woman (and child!)...would you still want him to have the final say??? Really, think about it.

    And, yes, it would be MORE than heart wrenching to lose a child...especially if you were made to stand by and watch for 14 days and not allowed to do anything about it ! All because the "husband" decided you would lose your child, even though you were willing to care for it. Michael Schiavo is evil beyond belief. It makes me want to puke.
  • Carrie_K_Hutchens
    Marcia, there is not one thing that I wrote that was remotely close to slander.

    In the article, it says...

    "The appearance of conflict, as briefly covered, should have been enough for the court to remove this man as guardian of the wife who stood in his way of initially inheriting nearly a million dollars and marrying the mother of his children."

    Marcia, the money you are speaking of -- the money that went a little for her care and mostly for legal expenses -- was awarded for her needs and care. (That court never gave permission for it's award to be utilized otherwise.) It was awarded based upon Terri needing care for the rest of her NATURAL life. The amount calculated was based upon what that length of time would most likely be.

    No one said that Michael ultimately benefited to the full extent. He would have though, if things had just happened and no one protested. Instead, the attorneys wiped out the award that was meant to keep Terri in care for however many years she (naturally) lived.

    That he would have so ultimately benefited, under the entire circumstances, did place him in a conflicted position. That is an absolute truth. There is no slander in truth.
  • John
    Although no hard concrete evidence was ever shown that Michael was in any responsible for Terri's collapse, I can tell you that Michael has never told the true account of the circumstances of Terri's collaspe. If one goes back and looks at all of the records and documentation, one will see that every account given by Michael Schiavo about Terri's collapse in conflict or inconsistent. I believe Michael was somehow involved in Terri's collapse. Whether it was negligence, an accident, or criminal act will never be known. But, Michael has yet to this day given clear consistent account of the details surrounding Terri's collapse.
  • regardless of why she was human and being that should be afforded basic life giving substances, our story is the ohter side while terri suffered so did my son and i watching from a distance he on a feeding tube himself so often taken advantage of those innocent children regardless of age are taken advantage of for the means of money terri died due to her husband wanted money yes he may have cared for terri but in the end we know that was long not true her mom and dad cared visiting her loving her why my son died due to money and greed of the medical system we trusted to care for him using organs on my child that the doctor deamed unusable were used to "save our childs life" such crap self motivation killed our child the doctor was self motivated to make millions in insurance from our childs transplant given he was on ten years old helpless in the world why does it matter if terri or my son terran were less than perfect they were human and now they are both in heaven were inperfections dont matter only love now surrounds them the people who killed them my son the doctors at jackson memorial hosptial who used unsustable organs or the doctors who starved terri are both living off the suffering of our children

    what has this world come to when the less then perfect are treated horrible while the dogs and cats are put on pedsitals as well as the terriorsts is it any wonder why those who live out side the united states look at us with open mouths waiting for the next stupid thing we do
  • MRE
    I once nursed a Royal Air Force Pilot who survived a horrific crash.All the docotrs claimed he was brain stem dead and could not do anything.A nurse and I at night over 4 nights every two hours washed him with "Lourdes Water".We saw a slight movement and reported it.Only to be told it was reflex and nothing,the mand would never be able to do anything.Well he did leave the hospital.Not via a coffin but able to move by himself.True he had brain damage and that made him slightly aggressive.However the DOCTORS WERE WRONG:THEY SAID HE WAS BRAIN DEAD:All results showed the same thing.As a nurse I was always taught to show tender loving care to patients.Even back in the 1980's I was disciplined by my matron for ordering a doctor to replace a drip on a patient I was in charge of instead of starving him to death.I was told it was not my business!I know see that the Pro Death,Pro suicide supporters are now claiming that death by starvation is a cruel and in humane death according to reporst in UK and German media outlets.These people cant have it both ways.Having got the law allowing starvation of people by starving if they are considered "Brain Dead" they know push further for Doctor assited suicide the quick way due to the pain involved.Now how can these nurses claim there is no pain when starvation is an agonising and very painful way to die.
  • cfan
    Morphine is not just given for pain. Everyone seems to be assuming that morphine is only used for pain, and this is false. People who are vegetative can still develop "air hunger", which occurs as a result of acids and toxins accumulating in the blood stream from dehydraton and ketosis. This lowers blood pH, and a compensatory mechanism is to increase respirations. Air hunger only requires a brain stem. No cognitive capacity is needed. While Terri was not brain dead -- her brain stem was still functioning -- the serial isoelectric EEGs and ametabolic SPECT scan clearly indicated neocortical death. Morphine alleviates air hunger, which is done more to palliate family members and care providers than the actual patient, if the patient is neocortically dead.

    Conscious pain perception, as we generally understand it, is not known to be possible with neocortical death. People seem to be confusing conscious pain perception with nociception. Under normal circumstances the two are equivalent, but not so in neocortical death. Think of a patient under general anesthesia who will grimace or retract from a scalpel if not paralyzed, but who has no conscious memory of pain perception after awakening.

    Moreover, all the videos I have seen did not exclude PVS. The actions portrayed in the videos are perfectly consistent with PVS -- although not diagnostic of such. One would need to see the actions in context, with and without commands and external stimuli, to determine cognizance versus reflex.

    A great deal of misinformation has been promulgated. If anyone is interested, the peer-reviewed and august journal NEUROLOGY published a very interesting article last September which actually quantified and documented the amont of misinformation associated with the Schiavo case in the mainstream media.
  • As I explained to the last morally bankrupt commenter, providing morphine to alleviate air hunger as opposed to alleviating pain is totally asinine. They were trying to kill the woman.

    Frankly, I don't care if you call it PVS, PVC, CBS or NBC, if the woman can recognize people, laugh, respond to negative stimuli, and try to talk to people...it's MURDER to kill her as they did in Florida.

    The fact that so many otherwise ostensibly intelligent people seem so oblivious to this common sense--or to the value of human life--tempts me to be seriously pessimistic about the future of our society.
  • Aprica
    One point that no one has brought up is the the autopsy indicated that the areas of her brain that would have been involved with vision were destroyed. Ms. Shiavo was blind, and had been blind for some time. Thus observers of the videos who claimed Ms. Schiavo's eyes tracking a balloon as evidence of her consciousness are sadly mistaken and incorrect. While the family lamely claimed that her blindness developed in the last two weeks of her life, there is absolutely nothing to support that allegation.
  • Carrie_K_Hutchens
    Ron Cranford, a doctor with an agenda, actually was on video suggesting Terri was tracking the balloon, wasn't he? Why do you think he would suggest she was tracking the balloon, if she wasn't?

    Dehydration shrivels organs. The brain is an organ.
  • aprica
    Not sure where you are reaching the conclusion that Dr. Cranford suggested that Ms. Schiavo was tracking a balloon. Dr. Cranston has consitently indicated that Ms. Schiavo lacked "visual tracking" In relation to Ms. Schiavo, he stated, "When you see those pictures, it looks like Terri is interacting, but do you know what? She's really not. That's what the vegetative state is. It looks like they're interacting, but they're really not. And there's nothing I can do to change that."

    The clear concluson of the autopsy report however concluded that Ms. Schiavo had severe occipital lobe necrosis. Her vision centers of her brain were dead. Therefore, Mrs. Schiavo had what's called cortical blindness. She was blind, could not see.

    Dehydration prior to her death would not account for this finding. Her blindness was a direct result of her catastrophic brain damages years earlier, not two weeks without hydration.

    Your claim that dehydraton shriveled her brain causing blindness is without any scientific support.

    I understand why it is so important for you to claim that Ms. Schiavo could see, but that conclusion is just not supported by the evidence.
  • What is amazing to me, aprica, is that you and anyone else who claims to have seen the video of Terri Schiavo following a moving object can claim she doesn't see it; anyone who claims she could not is quite obviously themselves blind--perhaps both physically and mentally.

    Even if she had been blind as a bat (which she obviously wasn't), she was equally obviously cognizant, and there is only one word for the killing of an innocent human being who isn't brain dead: murder.
  • Carrie_K_Hutchens
    "Not sure where you are reaching the conclusion that Dr. Cranford suggested that Ms. Schiavo was tracking a balloon. Dr. Cranston has consitently indicated that Ms. Schiavo lacked "visual tracking""

    Consistently, huh? Well, Aprica, I guess you missed his video, with him saying with his own mouth and voice that she was indeed tracking the balloon. There's no conclusion involved. It's a matter of fact that Cranford SAID IT! Now why do you think he SAID IT, if she wasn't?

    You're wrong on another point...

    It is not important to me whether Terri could see or not. She could have been doing like the blind do and following SOUND and SMELL and it would all amount to the same thing -- she was aware and following directions!
  • Yes, and we know everything about the brain, don't we?

    Obviously not, since only a blind person could miss the fact that Terri clearly followed a moving object and recognized her parents. I doubt very seriously she was using ESP.

    Whether it was vision, ESP or The Force, it was quite clear that she was aware of her surroundings and not the brain-dead vegetable she was made out to be.

    Perhaps your zeal to see the disabled removed from life blinds you to even such elementary truths.
  • GooDvsEviL
    Everyone watched as she SLOWLY DIED (killed) of thirst !!!!!! I don't expect the men to understand so trash talk all you want .This to the many mothers who are in the same or similar fight, MOTHER should have rights wed or not !!!
  • cfan
    Dehydration has little to no effect on brain size and weight. This is because the CSF acts as a buffer. The volume of CSF will shrink to spare the brain. That the autopsy showed the CSF volume to be HIGHER than the brain volume tells us that the shrinkage of the brain was NOT due to deydration. Moreover, the type of damage gleaned from the autopsy was clearly not what is seen from acute dehydration, but rather from chronic changes of anoxic damage.

    Similarly, starvation has little to no effect on brain size and volume. If it did, then obese persons would on average have larger brains than lean persons, and people who die from starvation would have shriveled brains. But neither is true. While the brain is very lipid rich, the lipid content is structural in nature -- myelin sheathes, primarily -- and not a substrate for energy. That much about the brain we do know. Ergo, the shrinkage and atrophy observed at autopsy could not have been due to dehydration or starvation. In point of fact, Terri was not techincally starving (medically speaking) as her fat stores were still intact.

    The video that purportedly showed Terri following the balloon does not vitiate the PVS diagnosis. PVS patients can sometimes fixate on objects and track them. Cranford conceded that Terri did seem to follow the balloon -- although one cannot be certain from the video, as the video zooms in on Terri's eyes and we don't know where the balloon went -- but Cranford also drew a bona fide distinction between SUSTAINED visual pursuit and what Terri did. Terri did NOT exhibit sustained visual pursuit. The video makes that clear.

    I would agree that Cranford was biased, but so was Hammesfahr. You may recall that Hammesfahr's own video refuted -- or at least failed to support -- his clinical impressions. So let's just throw out the doctors who got involved after 2002 and only go with the doctors who made diagnoses prior to that. nce again, the September 2008 article in NEUROLOGY provides an excellent analysis of the Schiavo case and the misinformation associated with it.
  • cfan
    It's actually very interesting that you would continually bring up the videos, Mr. Ellis. As an academic physician with a background in bioethics -- the "bad guy", no doubt, in your mind -- I have the opportunity and privilege to teach medical students. Discussion of the Quinlan, Cruzan, and Schiavo cases is staple for the bioethics course.

    When medical STUDENTS are shown the videos of Terri, and are then told that people used these videos to "prove" that she was aware and cognitive, they are immediately incredulous and skeptical. The point being that even STUDENTS know enough about altered neurologic states to realize that, while the videos could certainly be construed as supporting consciousness, they are by no means definitive or diagnostic -- and in fact, the videos are equally consistent with a vegetative state, your caustic denigration and contumely notwithstanding.

    I would once again bring up the distinction between visual object fixation and tracking, versus SUSTAINED visual pursuit. The former (which Terri did seem to exhibit) could go with either vegetation or consciousness, whereas the latter (which Terri was not known to exhibit) is the clinical hallmark of consciousness. It is clear that you have no real background in medicine, and I am not interested in arguing with you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I do feel that introducing medical facts into the discussion is warranted.
  • Yes, cfan, you certainly justify the classification as "bad guy" that many Orwellianly-titled "bioethicists" carry these days. So-called "ethical authorities" like yourself often tell an unsuspecting public that worships your education that it's okay to create human life to destroy it, that old people have a duty to die and get out of the way, and that it's morally acceptable to starve and dehydrate the disabled to death. What a sad and pathetic state we've reached when "bioethicists" argue for the murder of innocent human beings.

    When talking about the medical STUDENTS being shown these videos, what you might have said--if you been interested in accuracy--would be that these medical STUDENTS are apparently already indoctrinated by "ethicists" like yourself to the point that they can no longer exercise even common sense.

    It is truly astounding that ostensibly educated people like yourself are so morally bankrupt that you make even the common man look like a mental giant. You are so adrift from any moral foundation that you are incapable of grasping what most people can get even before they eat their Wheaties.

    If proof was needed of the existence of the spiritual realm, the influence of the spiritual in the physical world, and of the resultant blindness of that influence, you are indeed an illustration of it. I can think of nothing else but spiritual darkness and blindness to explain how an otherwise intelligent person such as yourself could be so oblivious to the obvious and so hostile toward innocent (albeit inconveniencing to someone) human life.

    As damaged as Terri Schiavo's brain was, I have to wonder if she must might have had a better grasp on reality than you do.

    Anyone who can watch a woman follow a moving object, laugh, recognize her parents and attempt to talk and still insist that it is morally acceptable to murder her is either totally daft or so morally blinded that they might as well be clinically daft.
  • Carrie_K_Hutchens
    "Like Terri, I know the horror of starvation. My feeding tube was turned off for eight days after doctors gave me no hope fro recovery. We should applaud Terri’s family for continuing on after Terri’s death to defend the sacredness of life." -- Kate Adamson (Kate survived a devastating stroke and is now a highly acknowledged international speaker advocating for the disabled)

    They thought she wasn't aware of her surroundings either!
  • Tom
    I do know from the early records in the case, that there may be possibility that Michael had abused Terri early in there marriage. Records indicate that shortly after Terri and Michael were married, Terri apparently consulted with an oropedic surgeon named Dr. Osher. Unfortunately, little or no information can be found on exactly what Terri consulted Dr. Osher for. When Michael was confronted with Terri seeing Dr. Osher, Michael became very squarrlely and excited. Michael became very evasive denying any knowledge of Terri's consult with Dr. Osher. Michael even went as far as to adamantly deny that He and Terri were even in Florida when Terri consulted Dr. Osher even though Michael had said many times that he couldn't remember dates and times very well. Addition, off the record conversations were held between attorneys over the Dr. Osher. I would love to know more about why Terri consulted Dr. Osher. Did Terri receive some injury and as abused woman tell a story to Dr. Osher to cover up? We may never know.
  • Walter In FL
    Is It True?

    Is it true that the Schindlers made 4+Hours of videos of Terri Schiavo?

    Is it true that the Schindlers displayed to the public only the highly edited 4+minute of the 4+hours of videos?

    Is it true that the Schindlers made these highly edited videos to give a false display of Terri Schiavo’s condition? Also proving the Schindlers knew the true condition of Terri Schiavo for them to even make these edited videos.

    Is it true that the Schindlers’ overall purpose of these highly edited videos of Terri Schiavo was to incite sympathy, to generate donations and stir support?

    Is it true that the Schindlers made request for donations for their legal fees?

    Is it true that the Schindlers' legal representation was paid for by other rich foundations.

    Is it true that the Schindlers (Bob Sr., Mary, Bob Jr., and Suzanne) are working for the Foundations that was/is financed with the requested “Legal Fees” donations which is still providing all four of them their livelihoods and retirements.

    By requesting donations for one purpose (legal fees) and using these donations for another purposes (livelihoods and retirements) is a scam. It was a fraud on the persons that gave donations for the purpose of helping the Schindlers’ with their legal fees.

    I called it a fraud especially on the public and/or their donors.

    Everything the Schindlers state about Terri Schiavo’s condition is base on these edited 4+minutes of videos. Once the public realize that these videos were edited and staged to give a false display of Terri Schiavo's condition, The Schindlers' whole story line falls apart. The Pinellas County Medical Examiner’s autopsy report proves and disagrees with the Schindlers’ falsehoods about Terri Schiavo’s PVS.

    The Schindlers are attempting to re-write the History of the Terri Schiavo Tragedy to fit their story line ("The Schindler Script").

    It is true that Terri Schaivo’s condition was Persistent Vegetative State (PVS).
  • Carrie_K_Hutchens
    Walter, is it true that you are a friend of Michael's?

    Is it true that you spend a great deal of time on... is it Topix?

    Is it true that your wife is or was working for one of Michael's attorneys?

    Is it true that Felos was on the board of directors of the hospice that accepted Terri, even though the rule was that a person had to be terminal with only six months to live? Is it true that Felos didn't bother to share this with the court?

    Is it true that CBS or one of the stations put out the news of Terri's death and described the scene... but... whoops... Terri hadn't died yet? Who gave them such a press release in advance?
  • Tom
    To Carrie and others who care,

    I strongly encourage you to read the following Law Document:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract...

    This document conclusively proves that Terri's so-called wish to die was nothing than unrealiable trash.

    Snead does a superb job of analyzing the veracity of Terri's wishes.

    In fact, Snead actually does the analysis that court so errornously failed to do.

    Once you read this document, you will begin to understand....

    That Terri's death was a killing and the court committed Judicial Homocide.
  • Tom
    To Carrie and others who care,

    I encourage you to listen to following audio interviews and clips that outline the ugly reality of the Schiavo case:

    1. http://www.centerforajustsociety.org/uploads/te...
    An execellent interview of Ken Connor with John Sipos. He explains
    some of Terri's Law and the judicial problems with the Schiavo case.
    Rating is a 10.
    About 20 Mintes long.
    Dated January 29,2005.

    2. http://libsyn.com/media/commarts/NGOVCNeff.mp3
    Very Good interview by Chuck Neff in the media who studied the
    Schiavo case. Has a very distrubing story about his mother in
    hospice.
    Rating is a 9.
    Dated around March 18,2005
    Running Time - About 15 Minutes.

    http://mediaie.kfuoam.org/mp3/Issues5/Issues_Et...
    Wesley Smith talks about the Legacy of Terri Schiavo after her death.
    Relays some very interesting facts.
    Rating is a 10.
    Dated April 14,2005.
    Running Time - About 20 Minutes

    http://www.christianradiomagazine.com/audio/crm...
    David Gibbs talks about The Schiavo case on Christian Radio. He
    presents a good due process (fundamental fairness) argument.
    Rating is a 10.
    Dated February 12, 2006.
    Running Time - About 20 Minutes.

    http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp...
    Bobby Schindler and Lawyer Michael Gaynor discuss Terri after she
    dies and the legalities and problems with the Schiavo case. Gaynor
    present an excellent Due process argument (fundemental fairness).
    Callers phone in. 1 hour long.
    Rating is a 10.
    Dated June 17,2005.
    Running Time - About 1 Hour.
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