Marriage Defenders Optimistic After Prop 8 Hearing

imagesbannerscp_120x60Reprinted by permission of the Christian Post

By Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Fri, Mar. 06 2009 10:40 AM EST

Traditional marriage supporters are optimistic that Proposition 8 will stand after oral arguments were heard Thursday by the California Supreme Court.

“Of course, we can never be certain how a court will rule until the decision is actually issued, but today’s arguments were very encouraging for those who worked so hard to ensure the passage of Prop. 8,” said Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute, a non-profit legal defense organization.

As thousands of demonstrators on both sides of the gay marriage debate stood outside at San Francisco’s Civic Center Plaza, several justices inside the Supreme Court chambers were expressing skepticism toward arguments by the gay rights attorneys.

The challengers of Proposition 8 – a ballot measure defining marriage as between a man and a woman that was passed by 52 percent of California voters in November – argued that the measure was placed before voters prematurely and was an invalid constitutional “revision.” Revisions can only be made by a two-thirds vote of the Legislature or a constitutional convention, the lawyers said. bridegroom

They also argued that Proposition 8 violates the inalienable right to marry.

Kenneth W. Starr, who was representing the proponents of Proposition 8, told the court that the measure was properly enacted and that “the people have the inalienable right to control their constitution.”

“Describing Proposition 8 as a revision to the state constitution, depends on characterizing Proposition 8 as a radical departure from the fundamental principles of the California Constitution,” Starr said. “But that portrayal is wildly wrong.

“Proposition 8 is limited in nature and effect. It does nothing more than restore the definition of marriage to what it was and always had been under California law before June 16, 2008 – and to what the people had repeatedly willed that it be throughout California’s history. It is now part of the state constitution.”

According to observations by the Pacific Justice Institute, the high court justices “were not buying” the arguments of the gay rights lawyers. Moreover, some of the justices “seemed hesitant to overturn a direct act of the people.”

Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, also acknowledged to The Los Angeles Times that the court appeared skeptical of their arguments.

Justice Joyce L. Kennard, who has traditionally supported gay rights, said Proposition 8 “hasn’t destroyed equal protection,” as reported by the LA Times.

“I think what you are overlooking is the very broad powers of the people to amend the Constitution,” she said. “What I am picking up from this case is that the court should willy-nilly disregard the will of the people.”

Lawyers and supporters of traditional marriage were pleased with Thursday’s hearing.

“It appeared there was a broad understanding on the court that ultimately the inalienable right of the people to amend our Constitution will determine the outcome of the case,” said Andrew P. Pugno, a lawyer for Proposition 8, according to the LA Times.

At the same time, it seems likely the court will continue to recognize the 18,000 same-sex marriages that were performed between May and November of 2008.

In May 2008, the state Supreme Court had legalized gay marriage.

The court will issue its ruling within 90 days.

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  • DCM
    It seems that gays mistakenly think everyone who disagrees with them sees them the way a prejudiced white person sees blacks -- as someone different whom, in their ignorance, they can’t deal with. Actually, that’s true of some; these get a lot of press, and there can be no serious doubt that they’re in the wrong.

    Others of us, however, have a different issue with gays seeking “equality” for their relationships. To echo Bob somewhat, they look to us sort of like someone who has drawn fake $100 bills and can’t understand why they shouldn’t be accepted as real. Or, they look like someone who refused to fight in the war but still thinks they should get a medal.

    Real marriage is extraordinarily difficult. It involves the intimate joining of people with opposite needs, and requires a level of unselfishness and willingness to grow that few are willing to reach. That’s precisely why it’s so frequently failed at, and why all attempts to have its sexual benefits without its costs are bogus. Heterosexual promiscuity, living together without marriage, pornography -- these may currently have more societal acceptance than gay relationships, but ultimately they’re no better.

    I’m not gay, but I’ve dealt with an issue of my own. It has societal acceptance, but, frankly, I don't think it should. I recognize it as a poor, even harmful, substitute for the kind of relationship I was designed for, and I have to keep up the difficult task of walking away from it in order to be normal and healthy. I wish I could change reality to fit what I want to do, but I know I can’t.

    If you look at the life of anyone who is gay or has some other sexual addiction, you will see definite patterns. Every such person is that way because of something going seriously wrong with their life. sexual issues are hard to let go of because we depend on them to cover some very deep pain; we get really strong vested interests in them. It takes a brave and persistent person to do what it takes to get healthy. So I can’t judge too harshly anyone who is unwilling or doesn’t think it’s possible or necessary; but I will always hope for them to get to the point of wanting what's right more than what's easy.
  • cinemaphile85
    DCM,

    Why do you think being gay is a form of sexual addiction?
  • DCM
    I'm in a position to hear from a lot of guys with sexual addictions, and homosexuality fits all the general criteria in terms of origins & results. Such addictions only differ substantially from each other in terms of what their object is.

    People are used to thinking of homosexuality as something that's there *instead of* heterosexuality. But, like all sexual addictions, it is actually present *on top of* normal sexuality -- if you use "normal sexuality" with the correct definition of either monogamy or celibacy.

    For example, I had a friend who was gay and had tried to do the "forced change" thing by getting (heterosexually) married, without ever dealing with his issue; typically, he got divorced & then embraced his "gayness" fully. What he didn't realize, but I observed, was that, if his addiction to men was taken away, then he would have been a more normal & healthy example of a married heterosexual than, say, the guy who drools over every babe who walks by.

    This is why it's possible to have "ex-gays." They have not changed into something totally different than what they were; they have merely dealt properly with something that severely got in the way.

    You may speak of monogamous gay relationships, but these are actually an extreme exception. Some gays (including one well-known writer whose name I don't have handy) have said that gays should *not* pursue gay marriage, because it validates marriage in general as being the norm. I don't agree with this thinking (i.e., that marriage shouldn't be validated as normal), but at least it takes an honest position: basically, that if you're going to reject a value system, you shouldn't try to claim its benefits.
  • cinemaphile85
    I don't mean to sound rude, but I hope to God you don't get paid to counsel people.
  • Richard
    Marriage should only be reserved for people who:

    -Share religious believes
    -Pass a medical exam and have no history of any complications, disorders, defects, etc.
    -Barred from purchasing any kind of contraception
    -Woman who believe they are their husbnad's property
    -Men who believe a daughter can be sold into slavery
    -Are the same race
    -Promise to never have any kind of sex unless they are trying to concieve a baby
    -Never get divorced
    -The woman has to be locked away during her visit from Aunt Flow

    Then marriage will be biblically moral. Medically healthy. AND sexually natural.
  • I think just restricting it to couples that can fulfill the basic ingredients for marriage is sufficient: a man and a woman.

    Without one each, you may have sex, but you don't have a marriage.
  • Charlie
    Why are you so obsessed with the sexual side of homosexuality? You speak of gays as if they're nothing but animals who have sex constantly. Why can't you at least admit that gay couples who get married love each other just as much as you and your wife do? If all gay people wanted was to have sex, they wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail against biggots like you to have equal recognition of their relationships. And if you really want to "protect" marriage, why don't you do something about the thousands of straight couples who rush to the altar when they barely know each other?
  • Why are you so obsessed with allowing two men or two women to call their relationship "marriage" if the sexual aspect of their relationship is unimportant? Can't they just be friends and stop attacking the incredibly important institutions of marriage and family?

    Are you claiming there is no sexuality to homosexuality? If so, you are being pretty transparently disingenuous.

    If two men or two women want to be friends, even close friends, there's not a single problem with that in the the world. I've had a male friend or two in my lifetime with whom I've been closer than a brother; we'd give our lives for one another if need be.

    But that doesn't give us license to have sex. Sex between two men or two women is immoral, unnatural and unhealthy.

    If you want to argue in favor of two men or two women being able to have a close friendship that doesn't involve sex, have at it...but then they wouldn't be homosexuals, would they?

    You see, you can't separate sex from the issue...unless you are deceptively attempting to avoid the core problem of the issue.

    I'm all for smarter decision making when looking for someone to marry, and I'm all for a greater commitment level than the pathetic display seen from heterosexuals in the past 40 years or so. I regularly advocate these things.

    But sex between two men or two women is immoral, unnatural and unhealthy. And no matter how much affection they may have for one another, two men or two women don't constitute the necessary ingredients to form a marriage, and therefore should not attempt to counterfeit a marriage by calling their union one.
  • Charlie
    Bob, you don't get it. And since you're so incredibly closed minded and prejudice, I suspect that you never will. Would you say that you and your wife are "friends" who have sex? Wouldn't you say that your love for your wife is fundamentally different than the love you had for your male friends?

    If you read my comment closely you'll find that I was not at all claiming that there is no sexual aspect to homosexuality. I'm saying that the relationship two gay men or two gay women have is comprised of the same chemistry as the relationship between you and your wife, and it deserves to be recognized as such.

    If you think it's immoral, that's your opinion, and that's fine. Petition your church leaders not to allow gay marriage in your church -- but remember that legal marriage is a contract between two people through the government that allows them to have certain rights and privelages and has absolutely nothing to do with your church. If you think it's unnatural, look at the hundreds of species who have been documented as displaying homosexual behavior. There is very little that's unhealthy about homosexual sex as long as neither partner has an STI, and let's not pretend that heterosexual sex is without risk.

    You say you regularly advocate smarter decision making when heterosexuals look for someone to marry. Do you have another blog that I don't know about? It seems like every other post here is dedicated to bashing gays, people who you regularly say are a very, very small percentage of the population. Yet, off the top of my head, I can't think of more than maybe a couple posts concerning that issue. It seems to me like you just have some intrinsic vendetta against gays.
  • Oh I get it, Charlie. I think it's apparent that you don't, however.

    My wife and I are indeed friends who have sex. And the love I have for my wife is fundamentally different than I had and have for my close male friends. That is because romantic and sexual love with a female who is one's wife is moral, normal, natural and healthy.

    On the other hand, romantic and sexual love between two males or two females is unnatural and immoral. There's just no getting around that. Wanting it to be moral and natural or pretending it is does't make it so, any more than someone who claims to be a certain French conqueror really makes tnem Napoleon.

    And it's not just mine opinion. God himself, who created the universe, everything in it, and all people, says it violates his design (which is rather obvious from nature itself) for human sexuality. Every major religion throughout history has also recognized this, as has every society in general; homosexal behavior has never been more than a tolerated and abnormal subset of any society.

    You obviously haven't read Dakota Voice very long (or haven't been paying attention) if you don't realize that I regularly counsel for more wise decision making when it comes to marriage.

    But then again, there aren't a whole lot of people in society who are demanding that society recognize that stupid marital decisions be recognized as normal, natural, healthy or smart. In fact, other than homosexual behavior, I can't think of a single other immoral and unhealthy behavior (such as recreational drug users, drunks, drunk drivers, gambling addicts, pedophiles, flesh cutters, adulterers, or the heterosexually promiscuous, etc.) where you have a militant group of activists who vehemently demand that their behavior be recognized as moral, normal, natural, and healthy--and be awarded official legitimate status by society.

    Why do you think that is? Why would it be that of all the immoral and dangerous behaviors out there, all the rest seem to be smart enough to realize to some extent that their behavior isn't normal, moral or heathy--all except homosexual activists, that is?

    Why this war on normal society? Why the war on everything good and moral? Why the bitter animosity toward marriage and family?

    I have to admit, most days I have a hard time understanding the utter hostility that comes from homosexual activists.
  • Charlie
    For the record, many societies in history have been accepting of homosexuality.

    There is a big difference between homosexuals and gambling addicts, pedophiles, and drunk drivers. Those people are doing things that are harmful to others. Last time I checked, gays weren't hurting anybody, except for that certain people get upset when they can't control other people's lives, and when there are people on the planet who are different than them.

    Gays aren't demanding that their "behavior" be recognized as moral. I'm pretty sure they couldn't care less if you think it's moral or not. And the thing is, whether it's moral or not doesn't even matter. It's not moral for a married man to look at another woman, but it's not illegal. There is a separation of church and state, remember.

    You seem to think that gays are out to destroy marriage and family. You couldn't be more wrong. It's the exact opposite, actually. If gays hated marriage, they would boycott it -- not try to partake in it. They don't want to destroy families, they want to create them. Where do you see hostility from homosexual activists? The only people I see hostility from is people who go out of their way to make sure that people they've never met are treated as second class citizens.

    How would it hurt you if gays get married, really? Would it change your relationship with your wife? Will it stop straight people from getting married? As I've said before, I don't think you have any reason to get so worked up about it other than the fact that you just don't like gays.
  • For the record, Charlie, many societies have not been accepting of homosexuality. A few have, at best, tolerated the behavior. Even if more had, it would still be just as wrong and just as unnatural.

    There is also little difference between homosexuals and gambling addicts, pedophiles, and drunk drivers. There may be factors of consent involved for the other endangered party, but all endanger the self and are immoral. Homosexual behavior also endangers the other partner, even if the endangerment is consensual. Reasonable people do not endanger others, even when consent is given.

    And when homosexual activists demand the right to counterfeit marriage, they threaten the stability of the environment children rely on for protection and development: the family.

    And please don't insult me by claiming homosexuals aren't demanding that their behavior be recognized as immoral. You must think I'm incredibly naive. Every time I post something on homosexual behavior, I always hear from one or more homosexual activists or apologists who claim it is moral. You yourself have all but flat-out said it is moral. Did you think I would be too stupid to notice your duplicity?

    You also seem to have a high level of ignorance concerning the so-called "separation of church and state." Check your Constitution. You'll find nothing in there which prohibits laws based on morality. You will find that the United States is prohibited from having a state church or a state religion, in that the Constitution prohibits congress from passing a law respecting an establishment of religion, but nothing preventing us from making laws based on morality. If that were the case, then we would have few if any laws; practically every law we have is based on a moral position derived from religious teaching.

    You, Charlie, could not possibly be more wrong about the war on marriage and family being waged by homosexual activists. To claim that their attempts to counterfeit marriage are not a threat to marriage is akin to claiming that the person who counterfeits U.S. currency is doing nothing to threaten the value of genuine U.S. currency or the strenght of our economy.

    You really should stop feeding your mind with immoral, destructive propaganda and take the time to think through some issues better. Defending homosexual behavior is ludicrious on every level: moral, practical, sexual, scientific, and health.

    Why not learn the truth, accept it and redirect your energies to defending marriage, families and the well-being of our society's children?
  • Charlie
    If you can't see the difference between someone abusing a child and two adults who want to pledge to spend the rest of their lives together, you have a lot of learning to do.

    Let me make this clear so that you will understand: I have neither said nor meant to imply that I think homosexuality should be considered moral. What is moral and what is not is a personal opinion based upon what religious beliefs one prescribes to. I get that you think it's wrong because of your religion. I have my own religion. I'm not out to change your religious beliefs because, trust me, I want nothing to do with your religion. Just because something is against your religion does not mean it should be illegal for everyone else.

    Along those same lines, I reminded you of the separation of church and state because you seem to think that something being considered immoral by your church means that it should be illegal. I said that just because something is immoral (according to some people) does not mean it needs to be illegal. This is true. I did not say that the constitution prevents laws based on morality. I'm well aware that many laws are based on Christian beliefs.

    It looks like you're the one who needs to think through things better.

    I've heard a lot of ridiculous analogies about same sex marriage, but yours might be the winner. The only way your counterfeit money analogy even begins to hold water is if you're working under the biggoted assumption that gay marriage is inherently worth less than straight marriage. Since I don't already think I'm better than other people, I'm not convinced.
  • Of course I can see the difference between a consensual act and an act of violence--that's why I stated there was such a difference.

    But perhaps you were so busy ignoring the similarities between these sexually immoral acts, that fact got caught up in the whirlpool of your ignorance.

    Charlie, don't start lying here about what you've said and what you've condoned, or you won't be allowed to comment anymore. If you want to say that you misspoke or you changed your mind, feel free; we all make mistakes sometimes. Deception and duplicity are things I will not condone.

    You said:

    "I'm saying that the relationship two gay men or two gay women have is comprised of the same chemistry as the relationship between you and your wife, and it deserves to be recognized as such." - If homosexual sex is really on the same plane as my marital relationship, then it must be moral.

    "If you think it's immoral, that's your opinion, and that's fine." - This statement clearly implies that you disagree with my contention that homosexual behavior is immoral

    "legal marriage is a contract between two people through the government that allows them to have certain rights and privelages (sic) and has absolutely nothing to do with your church." - Since the Bible clearly speaks to the origin, definition, and sanctity of marriage, and also speaks to pretty much every sexual activity possible outside the morality and sanctity of marriage--including homosexual behavior--you are again clearly implying that homosexual behavior is morally acceptable.

    I will not tolerate it when someone clearly states, endorses or advocates a position, and when they are called to account for that, they deny it. Be man enough to own up to the consequences of what you defend and endorse, or find another place to peddle propaganda.

    You are also being disingenuous and trying to have it both ways with regard to the Constitution and moral authority for our laws.

    "I did not say that the constitution prevents laws based on morality." - Really?

    "And the thing is, whether it's moral or not doesn't even matter. It's not moral for a married man to look at another woman, but it's not illegal. There is a separation of church and state, remember." - Again, you clearly implied that morality is unimportant and that we cannot make laws based on moral beliefs because--according to your warped misunderstanding of the Constitution--we have "separation of church and state."

    If you don't stop trying to advocate things, then back away from them and pretend you never took that position, no more comments will be allowed to you. Be a grownup and defend your position, or abandon it. I would suggest you abandon it, since your backpeddling tells me that on some level you realize it is indefensible.

    Finally, I think it is clear that you made a bigoted rejection of the analogy of counterfeit currency. Perhaps you reject it as "ridiculous" because it was so filled with common sense that it was over your head, but you owe it to yourself to go back, give it some more thought (preferably unencumbered by your politically correct biases this time). I'm sure that if you give it objective consideration, the parallel of calling something by a certain term when that something does not meet the criteria for that term is unmistakable.
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